silver flutist switching to wooden flute

[bepoq]

That was a question Talasiga - hence the question mark. I don't know what sort of musician you are (in all honesty there) - I mean you seem to be somewhat omnivorous from your sound clips there, but you might also be hard core trad. at other times for all I know. Keegan will settle down and play pure drop Leitrim flute when in the mood.

As to not giving advice, responding to some one asking what flute to play traditional Irish music on by holding up Sara's playing on an alto flute in a Flook number as a fine example seems to me like it might be construed as advice by the asker, but have it your way mate.

[daiv]

I largely agree your post - as I said, Irish music on the boehm flute can be and is done, well - and I think you neatly suggested some of the thought processes and understandings that allow that. I completely agree with you that in the right sort of situation I would also suggest that someone plays Irish music on the silver flute, and I have done in the past (only once I must admit). But my notion is still that given a situation where the choice is there, I would encourage the wooden flute most every time.

On the other hand, Tom is well capable of playing whatever he wants on the silver flute - if I'm recalling our conversations about it correctly, he said he simply doesn't "hear" Irish music on it in his own case. If I can reach him handily, I'll ask him again. I still find it telling, though I have the context of his more general view on music which might colour my understanding. If you don't think it is telling, fair enough, but kindly refrain from telling me what I am allowed to find telling, eh?

there's no need to reach him unless you want to! i'm sorry that i assumed you would have no way of knowing what his preferences were and why, and i will kindly refrain from telling you what can and cannot be telling .

[talasiga]

.....
As to not giving advice, responding to some one asking what flute to play traditional Irish music on by holding up Sara's playing on an alto flute in a Flook number as a fine example seems to me like it might be construed as advice by the asker, but have it your way mate.

Well there are good and bad or inappropriate constructions..

I gave an opinion based on my personal taste and supported it with the evidence of a person playing Irish music on a Boehm alto. The reader can make up his or her mind as to where I am coming from because I supplied all the material in the post and they can reject, accept, partially accept or ignore my comment.

This is what I actually said

.....
Lala,
This looks like Sarah Allen is playing a Boehm system alto flute
and what I hear is Irish system music:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emdvW9HB1oM

Beautiful isn't it?
I have heard that Joannie Madden plays a Boehm system flute. Check her out.

There are a lot of advantages to mastering a silver, chromatic concert flute. Tis not the instrument but what you do with it that voices it. Of course one flute will never sound like another (even amongst brethren flutes there are differences) but that does not mean they cannot both sound "Irish" or "Indian" or "Klezmer" or whatever you will.

Every flute harbours a Muse.

Yours sincerely,
Tala
(strictly wooden and bamboo and some plastics)

Notes
1. see I didn't say Sara was playing ITM, I said Irish system music for want of a better term. I was careful not to say ITM. (Note that whilst you may not construe it to be ITM but it is definitely Irish. It has an Irish feel and not of the commercial tourist pub crawl kind. Its definitely not a Blue grass , Indo folk, belly dance, cajun, hypno dance trance fusion or R&B feel.)
2. if you read Lala's earlier post, Lala already HAS a silver flute that Lala plays. So my comments are to encourage him or her with the instrument he or she already has and loves to play(until he or she decides on a replacement OR an additional one)

[Ronbo]

You said what you had to, Tal. You gave your opinions plainly, and you can't do more than that.

I enjoy Sarah Allen and Finnegan's music, whether or not it would be considered true ITM. I am simply amazed that she can work that big flute so well, and get the effects she gets out of it.

[cocusflute]

Bepoq is one of the three or four most accomplished players contributing regularly to this forum. He is also exceptionally kind to others who are not as accomplished as he is.
One should make every effort to understand what he is saying, rather than to find points of difference with him.

[Cork]

been almost a year since Lala said anything..... :lol:

I :lol: , too!

Then again, they're still talking about Plato and Socrates in school, these days, and they've apparently been out of the picture for quite a while!

:lol:

[bepoq]

That's very kind of you cocus and likewise daiv - you were serious, yeah? - (I'm editing this to repeat that I really do consider that very generous of you both and am grateful for your kind words cocus, and Daiv, that's the first time on here I can remember someone just acknowledging and accepting an objection like that - I'm not saying it never has happened - but it is humbling and makes me rethink my own method of discourse - like saying more clearly that I thought the rest of your initial post there was dead on) I'll split the difference with you on Tom Daiv and be sure to ask him about it next time I'm talking to him and get back on the board with it then, although since I moved to San Diego it happens rather less than formerly. It is an interesting question - why we play so consistently on the wooden flutes when it can clearly be done on the silver one too.

Talasiga - as I said above - have it your way.
If it gets me out of that part of the discussion:

I hereby declare that there was nothing exceptionable in any Talasiga post in this thread or probably any other. And I have a strong suspicion that there never ever will be ever in the future either.

[jemtheflute]

"You shall have a fishy
On a little dishy,
You shall have a fishy.........."

c.f. 1st & 3rd posts here

[Cork]

I largely agree your post - as I said, Irish music on the boehm flute can be and is done, well - and I think you neatly suggested some of the thought processes and understandings that allow that. I completely agree with you that in the right sort of situation I would also suggest that someone plays Irish music on the silver flute, and I have done in the past (only once I must admit). But my notion is still that given a situation where the choice is there, I would encourage the wooden flute most every time...

Let me see if I could add something constructive to this conversation, please.

For instance, although I have known numerous "Irish" musicians in my lifetime, and am at least familiar with ITM, I am an American, and, as I did not grow up in Ireland, in particular as amongst any particular, regional music tradition, I'm afraid that my view of ITM is limited. Yet, maybe that's not such a bad thing, as from this distance I am able to enjoy Irish music, from one end of Ireland to the other, without my having any particular, regional bias. That is, I am free to enjoy it all.

So, as I venture forward in my study and practice of ITM, I chose to do so mainly on a six-holed, keyless wood flute. Now, it's true that, on a day to day basis, I play both that sort of flute and a Boehm flute, but for the most part I use the keyless flute for ITM, and the Boehm flute for other music. Besides, as more technical observations, 1) given that much of ITM is, or could be, in the key of D, and given the R1 vs. R3 F# difference in fingering between the keyless and the Boehm flutes, I prefer to use the R1 fingering for ITM, and 2) given the very fast ornamentation of ITM, the keyless flute has real advantages, as the right tool for the job.

So, in that sense apparently I am using a more traditional instrument, and for good reason. However, and that aside, one of the difficulties I have as a "foreigner" is in getting the finer points of any particular, regional style, and, moreover, one of the greater risks that I encounter, especially in my study of "traditional" Irish music, is in stereotyping, or in "lumping" my interpretations together, so as to not be able to authentically replicate ITM, especially that of any given region.

That said, maybe that's how I could enjoy Flook's hit, Wrong Foot Forward, for apparently that is only loosely rooted in ITM, as am I.

(Flook must be doing something right. BBC awards, tours of Europe, Asia, and North America, around the world, we bobble-heads seem to agree!)

;-)

[Liney Bear]

deleted

[bepoq]

I also enjoy it all - that is, most all of the styles that I feel are taken seriously and done well (as in the musicians are accomplished at it). This probably makes me less than pure drop even though I prefer to listen to Tommy Potts or Jackie Daly than to Flook most of the time.

I think it important to note, that Flook, with the possible exception of Sara Allen whose background I don't know but who has been hanging about with Finnegan long enough I reckon, are deeply rooted in the Irish tradition - that they then push out from that root makes them no less so - I think that for me this is one of the main things that makes their music good and genuine, though not my favourite (the dreaded word authentic hovers over this paragraph, though I am fighting to avoid it) and music of other people who borrow from Irish music with only the most limited understanding of it very unimpressive. (Disclaimer once more - not aimed at anyone in this thread)

On a practical note: One way, artificial though it may be, to go searching for particular style, is to put yourself on listening restrictions. As all our learning in this tradition is based around listening, if you close yourself down in what you listen to and choose to listen to only, say, leitrim/belfast flute players for six months or so, or Donegal fiddle playing even, your understanding of the sound of Irish flute playing should change with that and move into your own playing - that is you will hear (in your mind's ear) the music differently. In other words, if you sonically limit and immerse yourself in one regional or iconic playing style, you can attempt to approximate learning while immersed in that tradition. This is not foolproof of course for many different reasons, but it works to some extent. The rather large downside of course is that you have to lay off all those other recordings that you like for that length of time.

[bepoq]

Ah now, steady on mate - that's a bit harsh - no need to drop to out and out insults, eh?

[Cork]

...On a practical note: One way, artificial though it may be, to go searching for particular style, is to put yourself on listening restrictions. As all our learning in this tradition is based around listening, if you close yourself down in what you listen to and choose to listen to only, say, leitrim/belfast flute players for six months or so, or Donegal fiddle playing even, your understanding of the sound of Irish flute playing should change with that and move into your own playing - that is you will hear (in your mind's ear) the music differently. In other words, if you sonically limit and immerse yourself in one regional or iconic playing style, you can attempt to approximate learning while immersed in that tradition. This is not foolproof of course for many different reasons, but it works to some extent. The rather large downside of course is that you have to lay off all those other recordings that you like for that length of time.

That makes sense, and more than that, in this age of the 'net, it's also a practical suggestion, thank you!

:-)

[Aanvil]

...On a practical note: One way, artificial though it may be, to go searching for particular style, is to put yourself on listening restrictions. As all our learning in this tradition is based around listening, if you close yourself down in what you listen to and choose to listen to only, say, leitrim/belfast flute players for six months or so, or Donegal fiddle playing even, your understanding of the sound of Irish flute playing should change with that and move into your own playing - that is you will hear (in your mind's ear) the music differently. In other words, if you sonically limit and immerse yourself in one regional or iconic playing style, you can attempt to approximate learning while immersed in that tradition. This is not foolproof of course for many different reasons, but it works to some extent. The rather large downside of course is that you have to lay off all those other recordings that you like for that length of time.

That makes sense, and more than that, in this age of the 'net, it's also a practical suggestion, thank you!

I think its a great idea.

This might be asking too much but... Ben do you have a short list players to listen to by style.

Its been a puzzle to me for some time.

I have an interest in that honky and pulse driven style currently. Not sure what area that comes from. Northern/Antrim/Belfast... I don't know if I'm even close.

Actually I can hear some that in your playing style?

Any help would be very much appreciated.

TIA

[groxburgh]

Besides, as more technical observations, 1) given that much of ITM is, or could be, in the key of D, and given the R1 vs. R3 F# difference in fingering between the keyless and the Boehm flutes, I prefer to use the R1 fingering for ITM, and 2) given the very fast ornamentation of ITM, the keyless flute has real advantages, as the right tool for the job.

Have you checked out a Carte 1867 patent version of the Boehm. F# available with R1 or R3, plus differences with the C /C#/D thing. Doesn't help much with point 2 though. And it's got open G# which is a good or bad thing depending.... and mine's at about A452 as well which doesn't help much for playing with others.
Cheers
Graeme