Boehm flute players roll call.

[Cathy Wilde]

Hey, give it a try.

Oh, believe me, I already have!

[peeplj]

Fact: A whistle, chanter, fife, and any simple system flute, is fingering-wise faster than any Boehm flute because there is no mechanism to impede. These instruments, however, are not chromatic, keyed simple system flutes notwithstanding.

Some "classical" music is played at speeds far faster than that at which traditional dance tunes are generally played.

I remember reading when in college that J.P. Rampal had been clocked at over 100 muscle movements a second when playing at top speed.

The key mechanism on a good Boehm-system flute does not slow the player, in my opinion: in fact, on a good flute, you barely even notice that there is a key mechanism at all between you and the flute.

That said, the clunky and often poorly-maintained key mechanisms you often find on lesser flutes will indeed slow you down, as well as causing you no end of other grief.

--James

[Cubitt]

Fact: A whistle, chanter, fife, and any simple system flute, is fingering-wise faster than any Boehm flute because there is no mechanism to impede. These instruments, however, are not chromatic, keyed simple system flutes notwithstanding.

Some "classical" music is played at speeds far faster than that at which traditional dance tunes are generally played.

I remember reading when in college that J.P. Rampal had been clocked at over 100 muscle movements a second when playing at top speed.

The key mechanism on a good Boehm-system flute does not slow the player, in my opinion: in fact, on a good flute, you barely even notice that there is a key mechanism at all between you and the flute.

That said, the clunky and often poorly-maintained key mechanisms you often find on lesser flutes will indeed slow you down, as well as causing you no end of other grief.

--James

Don't know what Cork is on about, saying that a keyed simple-system is not chromatic. Of course it is, just like a clarinet is. Clarinets, for those who don't know, are as "simple system" as any keyed vintage flute - seven (including thumb hole) open holes, augmented by keys. There are a lot more keys on a clarinet because the fingering changes in each octave, and there are a lot of trill keys and alternate fingerings, but the concept is exactly the same.

I think it's fair to say that, chromatically, a Boehm is easier and much, much faster to finger than a keyed simple-system. However, for Irish music, played in the traditional manner, you have much greater facility with an open-holed flute. It's more a stylistic thing than anything else, though. With Baroque music, you wouldn't know the difference either way.

[Lucas]

Some "classical" music is played at speeds far faster than that at which traditional dance tunes are generally played.
--James

Not the best example, but you get the picture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkJqZLE7XA
You can always try this on the simple system flute of your choice. I'll come back in 10 years and see how you're doing.

[peeplj]

J.P. Rampal recorded the Telemann Fantasias on flute and did a phenomenal job.

Unfortunately, the only online recordings I can find of this are Amazon's samples:

http://tinyurl.com/29qemb

This is a phenomenal recording...I have it and love it.

Ask yourself if the keys are really slowing him down?!?

--James

[Cork]

Fact: A whistle, chanter, fife, and any simple system flute, is fingering-wise faster than any Boehm flute because there is no mechanism to impede. These instruments, however, are not chromatic, keyed simple system flutes notwithstanding.

Some "classical" music is played at speeds far faster than that at which traditional dance tunes are generally played.

I remember reading when in college that J.P. Rampal had been clocked at over 100 muscle movements a second when playing at top speed.

The key mechanism on a good Boehm-system flute does not slow the player, in my opinion: in fact, on a good flute, you barely even notice that there is a key mechanism at all between you and the flute.

That said, the clunky and often poorly-maintained key mechanisms you often find on lesser flutes will indeed slow you down, as well as causing you no end of other grief.

--James

Don't know what Cork is on about, saying that a keyed simple-system is not chromatic. Of course it is, just like a clarinet is. Clarinets, for those who don't know, are as "simple system" as any keyed vintage flute - seven (including thumb hole) open holes, augmented by keys. There are a lot more keys on a clarinet because the fingering changes in each octave, and there are a lot of trill keys and alternate fingerings, but the concept is exactly the same.

I think it's fair to say that, chromatically, a Boehm is easier and much, much faster to finger than a keyed simple-system. However, for Irish music, played in the traditional manner, you have much greater facility with an open-holed flute. It's more a stylistic thing than anything else, though. With Baroque music, you wouldn't know the difference either way.

Hei,

1) Flutes without a mechanism have no mechanism to get in the way, ever.

2) I, for one, think of a one-key flute as being a simple system flute, having practical access to a limited number of musical keys (unless one prefers the sound of of a distant duck on a foggy day), and, of a simple system flute as having four or more keys to be another matter; see 1).

3) On a Boehm flute, a good mechanism makes a real improvement, as poor ones are clunky.

4) For chromatic events, I go Boehm.

[Cubitt]

Hei,

1) Flutes without a mechanism have no mechanism to get in the way, ever.

2) I, for one, think of a one-key flute as being a simple system flute, having practical access to a limited number of musical keys (unless one prefers the sound of of a distant duck on a foggy day), and, of a simple system flute as having four or more keys to be another matter; see 1).

3) On a Boehm flute, a good mechanism makes a real improvement, as poor ones are clunky.

4) For chromatic events, I go Boehm.

I'm unclear on what you are trying to say, but I'll do my best to respond. #1 is a fair statement, as far as it goes. I think I covered the point in my previous post, so I don't know what I can add.

#2 seems in search of a definition of a simple-system flute, so here it is: A flute where the primary scale of the instrument is played on six open holes. The number of additional keys does not alter its status as a simple-system flute. An eight-key flute is as chromatic as a Boehm.

#3 seems to endorse the contribution Boehm made in virtually refining every deficiency of previous flute configurations. I agree, although I would still argue that the Boehm flute is a poor vehicle for ITM.

#4 I agree. I will never have the proficiency on my eight-key that I do on my Boehm. There is a reason why the Boehm flute became and has remained the standard.

[Cork]

Hei,

1) Flutes without a mechanism have no mechanism to get in the way, ever.

2) I, for one, think of a one-key flute as being a simple system flute, having practical access to a limited number of musical keys (unless one prefers the sound of of a distant duck on a foggy day), and, of a simple system flute as having four or more keys to be another matter; see 1).

3) On a Boehm flute, a good mechanism makes a real improvement, as poor ones are clunky.

4) For chromatic events, I go Boehm.

I'm unclear on what you are trying to say, but I'll do my best to respond. #1 is a fair statement, as far as it goes. I think I covered the point in my previous post, so I don't know what I can add.

#2 seems in search of a definition of a simple-system flute, so here it is: A flute where the primary scale of the instrument is played on six open holes. The number of additional keys does not alter its status as a simple-system flute. An eight-key flute is as chromatic as a Boehm.

#3 seems to endorse the contribution Boehm made in virtually refining every deficiency of previous flute configurations. I agree, although I would still argue that the Boehm flute is a poor vehicle for ITM.

#4 I agree. I will never have the proficiency on my eight-key that I do on my Boehm. There is a reason why the Boehm flute became and has remained the standard.

Hei,

Right, a simple system flute would by definition be diatonic. My point in including the one-key flute here was to put it in the same catagory as all other simple system flutes as without mechanism. Yes, technically a one-key flute has a mechanism, but, for reasons, as above, I simply put it into the diatonic flute catagory.

By the addition of keys, a diatonic flute could become a chromatic flute, as one and the same flute. When played in diatonic mode there is no mechanism employed, but that same flute uses mechanism in chromatic mode.

Much of ITM is diatonic, where I reach for my modern "Irish" flute, having no mechanism. Once in a while I'll play ITM on a Boehm, but not much and not often. Somehow, ITM just plays better on a wooden, diatonic flute.

[peeplj]

Gentlemen, you both make good points, and you are both essentially correct in what you are saying.

I do think from my reading, though, that the volume and projective abilities of the Boehm-system flute had much more to do with its adoption that the relative ease of its fingering system.

When the Boehm flute was introduced, the orchestral flutists of the day were playing music was was quite advanced by their standard (and by ours!) primarily on the 8-key flute. They had no fingering difficulties on the 8-key, and they were quite capable of playing even the most involved and chromatic passages cleanly and at speed. For them, having to learn another fingering system represented a considerable challenge.

Indeed, there was considerable backlash against the Boehm system instrument at first, both for its sound--Wagner of all people hated it and called it a "cannon"--and its fingering system, which actually continued especially in Germany until well into the start of the 20th century, and in the earliest orchestral recordings from Germany different forms of keyed wooden flutes may be heard.

The ideal of the Boehm system flute is to sing out clearly and cleanly above the other orchestral woodwinds when possible; the orchestral ideal of the simple system flute was to blend its sound with the other woodwinds when possible.

The old debate is over; the Boehm flute has won by default, and where there was a time that you encountered the 8-key flute quite commonly, they are now rare outside of trad, folk, and early music circles.

--James

[tin tin]

Right, a simple system flute would by definition be diatonic.

The designation "simple system" doesn't refer to what kind of scale the flute can or cannot play (and as others have suggested, it's got nothing to do with how easy it is to play!), it simply means that it has a conical bore and uses a mixture of open holes and closed keys.

Any conical flute using a closed key system (from the one-key Baroque flute to the 8-key English flute to the 15-key Viennese flute) is a "simple-system" flute. All of them are chromatic. The open finger holes are based on a diatonic scale, but the flutes themselves (modern keyless Irish flutes notwithstanding) are not diatonic.

I find this site to be a fascinating resource: www.oldflutes.com

[Cubitt]

Gentlemen, you both make good points, and you are both essentially correct in what you are saying.

I do think from my reading, though, that the volume and projective abilities of the Boehm-system flute had much more to do with its adoption that the relative ease of its fingering system.


--James

Well, yes and no. It's been awhile since I've read Boehm's book, and I do know that volume and intonation were the primary concerns Boehm was addressing. However, when you consider what he did with the Bb key, alone, you have to admire his finger and key innovations as an engineering marvel. Consider: you can use the double Bb key to essentially change the key of the instrument from C to F without affecting any other note on the instrument. Therefore, for all flatted keys, you can simply keep the thumb key down and forget about it, except for B-nat accidentals. Yet, you still have the option of using the F key to get a quick Bb as an accidental in a non-flatted piece. We take this for granted, but what a boon it is, especially when you compare the awkward Bb key on the eight-key flute. I remember that Boehm was also passionate about the open versus closed G# key. So improved fingering and key placement were definitely concerns in his design.

[Cork]

...I do think from my reading, though, that the volume and projective abilities of the Boehm-system flute had much more to do with its adoption that the relative ease of its fingering system...

Yes, by the time Boehm introduced his metal flute, there was a need for greater projection, much more than that required for "chamber" music.

Yes, the Boehm mechanism is a strange animal.

[peeplj]

You are correct on your comments on intonation: one of Boehm's design goals was to produce a flute that would be well in tune with itself through its entire range, by having each chromatic note have its own dedicated tone hole of the proper size and position.

He didn't completely meet his own design goal: the tone hole for C# also has to serve as the octave vent for D, so it is too small and too high on the flute, making the note C-sharp often sharp and of a different timbre than its surrouding notes. Other problematic notes on the Boehm system flute are high E and high F-sharp; various approaches have been tried to improve these notes, usually with good success, though at the expense of some third octave trill fingerings no longer working.

Another minor addendum: Boehm didn't do the modern Bb thumb key.

This was added by Briccialdi around 1849.

If you use the Rockstro / James grip, the B-flat key on the 8-key flute is just as handy as on the Boehm.

On the Boehm system flute, if you actually use the left thumb on its key to help support the instrument, then your thumb will be considerably slower on its key than if you have a hand position which allows the thumb to move without bearing the weight of the flute.

--James

[Cork]

...Boehm didn't do the modern Bb thumb key.

This was added by Briccialdi around 1849...

Well, he did, but the order of the touches was such that the B touch was closer to the head, and the Bb touch closer to the foot, the opposite order of most Boehm flutes today.

That B/Bb order and Boehm's open G# were the first two things to change, not long after he introduced them.

[Cork]

...Boehm didn't do the modern Bb thumb key.

This was added by Briccialdi around 1849...

Well, he did, but the order of the touches was such that the B touch was closer to the head, and the Bb touch closer to the foot, the opposite order of most Boehm flutes today.

That B/Bb order and Boehm's open G# were the first two things to change, not long after he introduced them.

Edit: Somehow this double posted, and when I attempted to delete the second edition, that option was/is not available, sorry,