Heads will roll!

[Il Friscaletto]

Doesn't it just come down to the fact that everyone's body is different and everybody's lips are different, and you should base your flute adjustment on sound and comfort?

[Denny]

sure...right after ya get it to stand still...

[Leonard]

I've been playing the flute for 8 years with good results and I play all my flutes with the head turned in a lot.

Actually, I play with the head rolled in at 45 degrees. I'm sure this is to be confortable since I have quite short fingers.

If I line the head with the holes, I have to play with my left arm in the air to cover the holes.

That's why.

Does it make sence to others with short fingers?

Leo

[chas]

Actually, I play with the head rolled in at 45 degrees.

You related to this guy?

http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_10852/. ... GB7pirnlsv

(sorry, the BB software doesn't want to display the image)

I play with the head rolled in a little. Roughly the same for Irish or Baroque flute, so it's not entirely related to the dirty sound that Jim mentioned.

[BullFighter]

[
the question is:WHY i have to learn to produce the sound with the all-lined up position, considering THE SOUND comes up instantly with the hadjoint lined in???

You got lucky. What would you have done if the first time someone handed you the flute the headjoint was lined up and you couldn't produce the sound? Thrown it in the fire? No, you'd probably have done whatever you could to get the right sound from it, which might have included rotating the headjoint. But what if I could pick up the same flute and get the sound with the headjoint lined up? It's the same flute, just rotated differently. The sound that is available from the flute has nothing at all to do with how the headjoint is rotated, despite what Jim Stone says. What Jim Stone says is bull, and I'm fighting it. Someone with your username should know what I'm talking about, right?

ok, i can understand you: the point is that is not the flute, is you (your ergonomics, wrists, lips, air direction, etc). I agree with you. Jim's post suggest that he belive the flute sounded better, not himself.

but i'm not sure it's 100 percent the player.
you can rotate a pennywhistle head and find that there's a point where the sound is better. is all-holes-lined for a flute?

you said it is the start position for learning... it was wroten in the bible?
this is traditional music, i'm sure fiddler's grip is not te same that violinist's grip...

a lot of chiffers find that the lined in position provides the sound more naturally, and a lot of flutes (bamboo ones) are built with the embouchure hole lined in.

[jim stone]

I'm sure it's been said before, but I'll say it again.
The same sound can be achieved headjoint in or out, but not necessarily as comfortably.
That is, if I roll my headjoint so it is either lined up or rolled out, I can still get the sound I usually get, but it doesn't feel like how I want to play. It doesn't feel right.
If I roll in like I normally do (far edge of embouchure hole lined up with the middle of the tone holes or slightly father in, FWIW), I can still get other tones, different from the way I usually sound, but they aren't the tone I'm after.
In a sense, then, I think changing the position of the embouchure hole does make a definite difference. Perhaps not directly to the sound coming from the flute, but to one's comfort and happiness, and thence to the tone.

....Why is this way better than the "roll it a bit, try it out, and if you don't like it roll some more" method? Because the relationship you are trying to develop is between your lips and the blow hole, and even minute differences in positioning will make big differences in the sound you are able to get out of the flute. By varing the flute-lip relationship continuously via wrist movement rather than discretely by removing the flute from the lips and rolling differently, you are able to explore all possible positions of the flute relative to the lips, not just a few discrete ones. Then, once the sweet spot is found the wrists and the lips will both need to do some work in order to keep you at the sweet spot, and in so doing muscle memory is established that will help you find that sweet spot the next time you pick up the flute, and the next time after that, and the next time again. If after a while (multiple playing sessions, not just a few minutes) the wrist position feels wrong to you, you can safely adjust your roll a bit to get your wrists comfortable, because your lips will remember how they're supposed to feel up against the hole and they will naturally assume the right position to get your desired sound even at the new rolling spot.

I would have thought this was obvious to everyone, but maybe not. In any case, agreed. Quite right.

Thanks, John and Seis. This is quite helpful.

[sbhikes]

Here's a quote from Terry McGee from a topic that was linked on the previous page:

We can tell by the number of posts on the topic of tone (and by listening at sessions) that it's hard for new players of the Irish flute to find the dark, centred tone which features on the recordings that attracted them to the music. Possibly doubly hard for experienced Boehm flute players, whose previous training has lead them in quite a different direction. I wondered if this would be a useful exercise ....

Step One - discover the difference. Play a "nice" low octave G note, aiming the jet of air at the far edge of the hole. Now play a dark version of the same note, by protruding the upper lip (or withdrawing the lower lip, or doing both) to cover more of the hole, and to direct the airstream downwards, and by increasing the airflow. You should feel as if you were trying to blow a fly off your chin, or blow the jet into the centre of the flute rather than the edge. You should hear the note go hard and dark.

(Interesting to watch the spectrum of the note on an FFT spectrum analyser while doing this - you'll see increased content in the 2nd, 3rd and higher harmonics. The Autotuner incorporates an FFT unit and is free to download - see my Resources for Irish Flute players page for details).

Step Two - Increase the difference. Now alternate the two notes, "nice" and "dark", pushing the dark one harder and harder (both in terms of depression of the jet towards the floor and in increased airflow), until you are really impressed with the two differing sounds you can make. The "dark" sound should sound like tearing roofing iron compared to the cooing-of-doves "nice" sound. (Note - you may never wish to use the cooing-of-doves "nice" sound, but it has an important purpose here - to provide a reference from which you are trying to get away.)

Step Three - Increase the range. Now play up and down the low octave - firstly a few notes, then the whole octave - in both "nice" and "dark" modes. Keep pushing the "dark" darker.

Step four - Try some music. Nothing fast - we're working on tone here, not dexterity. If you play fast music, you won't have time to make the little adjustments needed to optimise each note. And you wont have time to evaluate the tone colour of each note. A song tune, an air, something with long notes, or just noodle. Use both modes ("nice" and "dark") to confirm your progress.

Step Five - Real Life. Try some dance music now, and see if this exercise has helped darken up your tone. Again use both modes to explore the difference.

I'll be interested in feedback to see if this approach has merit as an introduction to Irish tone, or if it might have merit but needs further clarification.

Terry

I have a question about this. In the process of getting the dark tone, do you also go flat? Since I mostly play by myself and don't have one of these machines to tell me whether I am sharp of flat, I can't really tell all by myself. Is it possible to get the dark tone and not go flat, without otherwise doing anything to the flute such as fooling with a tuning slide or whatever?

[jim stone]

'Is he one of those lonely souls for whom the internet is the only contact with real people, aside from lonely busking on street corners, tooting Happy Birthday to five-year olds.'

No, I do not toot Happy Birthday to five-year olds.
It's Yankee Doodle, for crying out loud. And it works too!
Made over 30 bucks in two hours Sat at a Farmer's Market
here in St. Louis. Left only because the sidewalk was
beginning to bubble in the heat. It's going to be
103 tomorrow.

Thanks again to all the responses.
I"m going into a Chinese
Buddhist monastery (Mid-America Buddhist Association)
just west of St. Louis
for a self-retreat till Sunday. It's full of fascinating
books you're not allowed to read, interesting people
you're not allowed to talk to, and profound ideas
you're not allowed to think. Oh well.
Best to all, Jim

[Dale]

Some of the replies to jim stone's question are inappropriate and inconsistent with board rules about civility and refraining from personal attacks.

All of the C&F forums are open to members of all levels of skill and a wide range of questions are permitted and encouraged. The fact that Jim's question generated a number of productive and helpful responses is witness to the fact that the question was not inappropriate. I've warned those who responded rudely.

Again, I remind us all that a condition of use of this board is patience and civility. If you find a question irritating or inappropriate, ignore it. If you think a question is grossly inappropriate, consult a moderator.

A reminder, also, that this is not a place to argue the appropriateness of this or that piece of moderation. Take that up in PM or email to me.

[flutefry]

For the past year or so I've played my Aebi nearly every day, head joint rolled in so that the far edge of the embouchure is in line with the centre of the tone holes. This gives me the reedy dark sound I like.

For the past 7 weeks, I've been playing a Grinter with the head in the same position, and getting a rather inconsistent, airy sound without a lot of centre. Last week, just for the heck of it, I rolled in the head joint some more. A surprise to me, but very obvious, is that my that my tone immediately became more solid, darker, and had more bark. Since then I've liked the sound I get each day better than any day I managed in the first 6 weeks.

I accept that this argues my embouchure isn't very flexible, and understand that in principle I ought to be able to get the sound I amlooking for regardless of headjoint position. Nevertheless, in practice, rolling the headjoint in a bit more on the Grinter immediately made a big difference, and ended what had been a relatively frustrating experience. For amusement, tried the Aebi the other day, and continue to get a lovely tone on it, with the headjoint in its usual position (less rolled in). I conclude that in my present state of development, different embouchure cuts work better with different amount of roll-in.

YMMV.

Hugh

[Cork]

To get that sound, the basic idea is to cover the hole, but not too much with the lower lip, and there are at least two ways to do that, 1) the head could be turned in, and, 2) air pressure (yours) could be used to expand the upper lip outwards.

Your choice, but the flute will have greater flexibility, between dance music and slow, soulful airs, if the head is not turned in.

[johnkerr]

I accept that this argues my embouchure isn't very flexible, and understand that in principle I ought to be able to get the sound I amlooking for regardless of headjoint position. Nevertheless, in practice, rolling the headjoint in a bit more on the Grinter immediately made a big difference, and ended what had been a relatively frustrating experience. For amusement, tried the Aebi the other day, and continue to get a lovely tone on it, with the headjoint in its usual position (less rolled in). I conclude that in my present state of development, different embouchure cuts work better with different amount of roll-in.

Well yes, of course. When you rolled in the headjoint on your Grinter, you changed your embouchure on it. You could have done the same thing without rolling in, but you chose not to and there's nothing wrong with that. But that is not what has been at issue in this thread. There is nothing wrong with statements such as "On flute X, I get a better sound when I roll in." The problem arises when someone says "Flute X plays better rolled in, while flute Y plays better when not rolled in." This implies that how a flute plays when it is rolled in or not is a property of the flute, when actually it is a property of the player. Knowing whether or not a particular player rolls in or not on a particular flute tells me or anyone else absolutely nothing about the flute, so the whole question is irrelevant except as an idle curiousity. I can drive a car better if it has a manual transmission instead of an automatic. How does knowing that help you decide whether to buy the Volkswagen or the Toyota?

[Jon C.]

I have a question about this. In the process of getting the dark tone, do you also go flat? Since I mostly play by myself and don't have one of these machines to tell me whether I am sharp of flat, I can't really tell all by myself. Is it possible to get the dark tone and not go flat, without otherwise doing anything to the flute such as fooling with a tuning slide or whatever?

Hi,
There is a free tuner that is very helpful, it works with your computer. All you need is a cheap mike to plug into your sound card, the program is on Terry's site http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
When you turn the emb. hole in toward you for that "dark tone" it also will flatten the tuning. This is handy if you are playing a old R&R, as the slide is not pulled out as much, so the flute will be easier to blow into tune. In your case you are limited without a tuning slide to push in, most slideless flutes are a little sharp with the socket pushed all the way in, so you should have some wiggle room.

[lixnaw]

I just want to add that if i roll in the head too much i'll have to raise my chin aswell and i'll have to drop my lower lip to reach the right spot.
But that way of playing doesn't suite me, it makes it hard to concentrate.

I like playing with a dropped chin, and the holes almost lined up, just a tiny bit inwards.

[BillG]

This has been a great thread. Having read through twice I decided to go straight - embouchure hole to tone holes, of course. This is what Skip Healy tried to get me to do six years ago but I thought it was a no go. So I played around with all kinds of angles and, yesterday, went back to the straight line up.

The flute now rests comfortably on my upper chin, my fingers are NOT uncomfortable and the sounds are great (to my ears). I find the slightest roll in or out of the flute can alter the tone to whatever I want and I like that a lot. I'm most happy with the upper chin rest. I played a fife for years and was able to march and play without the fife bouncing around but the flute was another matter. Now it too is secure.

Many of you were spot on with your comments but I think ("I" think) John Kerr was in the center of the target.

Thanx to all for your comments and to you, Jim Stone, good thread.