why no flute in Appalachian music?

[PB+J]

Isn't it true that when the influence of Irish (and other) earlier musical traditions occurred in Appalachian/Old Time music, the flute was not actually present in those other traditions?

Could be: I'm not sure how common flutes were in folk culture before, say, 1847. Maybe ordinary people just didn't have musical instruments. Historians of music in the colonial US say violins and flutes, including recorders and transverse flutes were the most common instruments. So let's say 1750 or so, the era of Daniel Boone, we'd have to assume that the people who came to Appalachia, either from Europe or from the East Coast of the US, commonly played flutes.

[jim stone]

'Stated another way, is there any aspect of Irish traditional music that makes it especially suitable for flutes but which is absent in OT?'

Truly, no, at least in my opinion. The OT tunes are often Irish tunes, or like Irish tunes, or anyhow tunes on which wooden flutes sound grand. I say this playing in both sorts of session. OT tunes are often (not always) more simple and easier to pick up, but that makes no difference to how they sound on flute. And the other instruments are typically those in Irish ensembles, e.g. mando, banjo, fiddle, et al. The chief reason flute isn't often part of OT sessions is that fluters don't go.

[PB+J]

Then by the twentieth century the pipes die out--I have no idea why--and apparently by the 1950s many Irish people had no idea there was an "Irish" pipe. pj+b

That's just not true pj+b, where are you getting your information from, Donald Trump? Uilleann piping has never died out in Ireland. Leo Rowsome was playing pipes, making pipes and repairing pipes from 1922 up until his death in 1970. There were uilleann pipe makers such as William Rowsome, Leo Rowsome, the Taylor Brothers, the Maloney Brothers, Thomas Keenan, Dan Dowd, John Clarke, Matt Kiernan, Tadgh and Denis Crowley, Moss Kennedy etc., Uilleann pipers such as Brother Gildas, Leo Rowsome, William Rowsome, Ned Gorman, Tom Dywer, Tom Rowsome, Micheal O Riabhaigh, Tommy Kearney, Martin Rocheford, May McCarthy, Peter McLoughlin, Michael Falsey, Seamus Ennis, Dan Dowd, John Ward, John Doran, Johnny Doran, Felix Doran, Tony Rainey to name but a few.

That information comes from multiple sources but most recently from the Documentary "Good Piping," in which it's words in the mouth of Eugen Lambe, maker of Pipes!

See here:

https://vimeo.com/24786300 starting at about 15 seconds.

Multiple people in that documentary talk about how rare the pipes and pipe playing had become by the 1950s, even while acknowledging yes they were still played.

You can rest assured I get no information from Donald Trump

[BigBpiper]

To put it bluntly, if you can hear the influence of Irish traditions in Appalachian/Old time music song and dance and not that of English traditions, then it simply demonstrates your ignorance of English music, song and dance and the history of folk traditions in Britain and Ireland.

Look up Cecil Sharpe's and Maude Karpeles' work in collecting songs in the Appalachians. Note the similarity of Appalachian styles of step dancing to English styles of stepping (flat-footing). Note that the tune you mentioned in your opening post was well known across Scotland and England. Note that large numbers of English settlers arrived in Appalachia and they did take their music, songs and dances with them.

English folk and traditional music is routinely ignored even in our own media. When mentioned on popular TV programmes it's usually to disparage it and laugh at it. English songs, dances and tunes are routinely attributed to other countries and the close historical links between English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk music covered up with ethno-nationalist claptrap ... and now it seems it's being written out of North American musical history too.

Sure, as I mentioned im my previous post, I'm completely ignorant of English instrumental music and dance. I'm well aware that the English even did influence some of the more recent jigs, ballad-like airs, and songs that most would refer to as Irish. As far as both Appalachian flatfooting and buckdancing go, it's a huge, unique blend of dances including Dutch, German (which also influenced OT music, by the way), and possibly even Native-American. I'll assume you are correct in stating the English influence on those dances, since I can't point to specific similarities, but there was also an undeniable influence of Ulster-Scot and Irish music and dance.

I'm very sad that English music and dance is being ignored and suppressed in its very birthplace. I genuinely hope that it is able to make a comeback, since I truly believe the folk music world is better with it. I hope you understand that I harbour no ill will at all.

[Nanohedron]

Then by the twentieth century the pipes die out--I have no idea why--and apparently by the 1950s many Irish people had no idea there was an "Irish" pipe. pj+b

That's just not true pj+b, where are you getting your information from, Donald Trump?

Okay, you can put an end to that right now.

FWIW, one day only a few years ago I was playing my C set outdoors, and a young Irishman (red hair, an accent, the works) came up to ask about it, because he'd never seen or heard anything like it before and didn't know what they were. At first I thought he was pulling my leg, but it soon became evident that he was in earnest. In this day and age, as you might imagine, I was shocked. My point: Based on that encounter alone, the idea that Irish nationals might not know that there is an Irish bagpipe is not at all far-fetched, for as surprising as that may be to us. I think we often forget that we swim in a small pond.

[PB+J]

It would be equally interesting to wonder why bagpipes didn't persist in US folk music. You'd think they'd be up in the West Virginia mountains playing bagpipes of one sort or another Maybe they were, I really don't know. But by the time Appalachian music is getting codified as a "thing" they don't seem to appear. I wonder if folklorists had some ideological opposition? Folklorists were forever preventing African Americans from playing songs that folklorists didn't; think there legitimately black.

Patsy Touhey makes a living following the Civil War playing the elbow pipes in Vaudeville houses, so clearly Irish Americans knew about and had an appetite for the pipes in the decades after the Civil War.

[Steampacket]

FWIW, one day only a few years ago I was playing my C set outdoors, and a young Irishman (red hair, an accent, the works) came up to ask about it, because he'd never seen or heard anything like it before and didn't know what they were. At first I thought he was pulling my leg, but it soon became evident that he was in earnest. In this day and age, as you might imagine, I was shocked. nanohedron

Of course there are Irish men and women who have never encountered a set of uilleann pipes live. They are nowhere as common as violins, guitars, banjos, or accordions. The young Irishman you met could have been an Ulsterman, perhaps he came from a small place where there were no uilleann pipers. Prehaps he had no interest in Irish traditional music when he lived in Ireland, who knows?

I took issue with the sweeping statement "Then by the twentieth century the pipes die(d) out" which is rubbish. The uilleann pipes never "died out" in Ireland

[Steampacket]

I'm very sad that English music and dance is being ignored and suppressed in its very birthplace. I genuinely hope that it is able to make a comeback, since I truly believe the folk music world is better with it. Bigbpiper

Um, English music and dance is very much alive and well in England. There are many folk festivals all over the country. There are folk clubs where people sing and play English traditional music, all over the country. There are concerts and recordings. There are local newsletters, there is a nationwide magasine fRoots.

[Nanohedron]

Prehaps he had no interest in Irish traditional music when he lived in Ireland, who knows?

That's entirely possible; it's easy to never have to step outside of pop culture, which is the dominant thing now. Even if Trad's all around you it's possible to have no interest in it. I know an older gentleman who grew up in the wake of the Gaelic Revival: his dad had driven a nail into the radio dial so that all it would play was the Trad station, but the young fellow wanted a much bigger world, so needless to say in that forced environment he developed an antipathy for "The Dydle-ee-Dye," as he still calls it to this day. For him, Trad came to represent only poverty and ignorance. Perhaps due to our mutual association, his opinion has softened some, but he'd still rather have classical or jazz any day. It's tempting to speculate that if it weren't for that one uncompromising nail, he might have even had room for Trad among his tastes, too.

I took issue with the sweeping statement "Then by the twentieth century the pipes die(d) out" which is rubbish. The uilleann pipes never "died out" in Ireland

Darned close, though.

[Conical bore]

Stated another way, is there any aspect of Irish traditional music that makes it especially suitable for flutes but which is absent in OT?

Well, one of the primary characteristics of instrumental Irish trad is the use of ornaments, many of which are interruptions of a sustained tone. It's (arguably) the legacy of the early (pre-Uilleann) pipes that couldn't be interrupted. These pipe ornaments were later adapted to fiddle, then flutes, whistles, and accordions.

There is no similar ornamentation in OldTime music. You might hear some hammer-ons and pull-offs on the string instruments, but it's nowhere near as heavily ornamented as Irish trad. So that's one big difference. A flute can shine in Irish but it's more limited for expression in OldTime music. You can play cuts and rolls anyway, but it's not exactly something people are expecting in the music, and it might even be a distraction.

There may have been a degree of cultural rejection as well. Maybe flutes were considered fancy instruments from the city? Maybe associated with Classical music? I don't know. Traditions of "appropriate" instruments develop in many genres.

I think it's worth pointing out that the flute has never made major inroads in the folk or pop music of the USA. The extreme case would be Bluegrass, with a narrowly codified group of allowed instruments. But even in Blues, Rock or Jazz, there have been very few prominent flute players over the years. It's just not a common instrument outside of the Classical world, or Irish trad where it's basically an imported tradition.

So maybe it's not too surprising that it's an uncommon instrument in OldTime jams as well. It's not exactly a prohibited instrument, like it would be in Bluegrass. It's just not among the first half-dozen instruments you think of, when you think "OldTime music."

[PB+J]

I took issue with the sweeping statement "Then by the twentieth century the pipes die(d) out" which is rubbish. The uilleann pipes never "died out" in Ireland

So if you read O'Neill for example--who I think we all agree knows something about Irish music, he consistently laments the fact that piping is dying out in common practice in the 1930s, towards the end of his life. It never completely disappears, which he notes, but lots of people testify that it was largely gone from common practice. For example, our own "Mr. Gumby," who plays the pipes and knows the history as well as anyone, recently wrote, right here: viewtopic.php?p=1213447#p1213447

"There were virtually no pipers in Clare in the early part of the 20th century. WIllie Clancy knew of Garrett Barry but had never actually seen a piper until Johnny Doran landed at the White Strand for the Miltown races by the early 1940s. Martin Rochford only heard the pipes when he came across Rainey playing in Ennis and he himself remained pretty much the only piper in East Clare for the next forty years or so.

It was only during the 1940s a bit of an upsurge began, Willie got onto the pipes, Martin Talty, Martin Rochford, Peter O'Loughlin got the bug, the Dorans visited more regularly, Seán Reid started pushing things a bit by bringing all these men together, JC Talty, Michael Joe Sexton, Michael Falsey and others followed a bit later.


The recent book about Garrett Barry, Out of Darkness makes this point as well. Barry dies in the poorhouse and is buried in an unmarked grave: he thinks the tradition is dying with him. I'm not making some sort of outrageous statement here: pipes go out of fashion in the first half of the twentieth century. so much so that as multiple people say in that documentary, most Irish people are unaware of the pipes. Who am I to believe, you or my lying ears?

Its an interesting question, I think, why instruments get codified or go in and out of fashion, I love the pipes and think they're glorious, and I'm puzzled that they ever faded from common practice. Why were there no pipers in American folk music. Maybe there were, and they've been written out of the narrative.

[Nanohedron]

I think you get a similar answer when you ask, "Why are there no trumpets or clarinets in Trad music?". Aside from a certain style of céilí band, it's just how it is. I've seen them but rarely at sessions, and I'm afraid it just didn't work for me. There's a certain spirit to sound and timbre that makes us tend to codify what instrument are "canonical" to a genre. That said, I once heard a remarkable recording of a very skilled trumpet player who obviously was steeped in Trad, shredding a very tasty reel in the best Trad fashion, ornaments and all, and the effect was positively Medieval - and I mean that in a good way.

[PB+J]

I think you get a similar answer when you ask, "Why are there no trumpets or clarinets in Trad music?". It's just how it is. I've seen them but rarely at sessions, and I'm afraid it just didn't work for me. There's a certain spirit to sound and timbre that makes us tend to codify what instrument are "canonical" to a genre. That said, I once heard a recording of a very skilled trumpet player shredding a very tasty reel in the best Trad fashion, ornaments and all - the effect was positively Medieval, and I mean that in a good way.

why no steel guitar in jazz? There are lot of examples of this. I could see why no clarinets--they're expensive and complicated and the maintenance required isn't exactly something you do in the barn. Trumpet and brass in general though--Louis Armstrong describes the power and joy of brass bands in New Orleans when he was a kid as purely a "folk" thing. There is a great recording of Armstrong and country singer Jimmy Rodgers doing one of his blue yodels. It works really well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA9Y9FkxJZo

But shortly after trumpet was pretty much banished from country music. Probably like everyone, I'm torn between respect for tradition and desire for innovation.

as a bass player for decades, I always wonder why no bass in ITM

[Nanohedron]

Probably like everyone, I'm torn between respect for tradition and desire for innovation.

I must confess that when I started out, I was very suspicious of innovation, even hostile to it; I thought Flook was astray, and an abomination. Over the years I've changed that attitude, and now I think that at some point experienced Trad players maybe should push the envelope, at least from time to time and if for no other reason than to keep their music fresh - but I wouldn't hang my hopes and dreams on starting a revolution. In the Tradition as a whole, things catch on organically, if they catch on at all.

Speaking of pushing the envelope: Once on a Trad open mic night, a friend and I performed a couple of hornpipes as a duo - on kazoos. We received a mixed response, I can tell you that; while some loved it, I think others still haven't forgiven us.

I could see why no clarinets--they're expensive and complicated and the maintenance required isn't exactly something you do in the barn.

By that reasoning, then you wouldn't see uilleann pipes, either! Really, I think it's more about the sound, not inconveniences: Klezmer and clarinet are like bread and butter, but soundwise I don't think a whistle would last long at all in a Klezmer context.

as a bass player for decades, I always wonder why no bass in ITM

I have to say that it doesn't really work for me. We had a bass player in one band I was in, but that was a rowdy west-of-Scotland-style cèilidh band, so the bass supported the overall sound that our leader wanted. Personally, though, I lean more toward an intimate sound that the bass wouldn't easily fit. I could maybe see a cello, though.

[mendipman]

To put it bluntly, if you can hear the influence of Irish traditions in Appalachian/Old time music song and dance and not that of English traditions, then it simply demonstrates your ignorance of English music, song and dance and the history of folk traditions in Britain and Ireland.
And
Look up Cecil Sharpe's and Maude Karpeles' work in collecting songs in the Appalachians. Note the similarity of Appalachian styles of step dancing to English styles of stepping (flat-footing). Note that the tune you mentioned in your opening post was well known across Scotland and England. Note that large numbers of English settlers arrived in Appalachia and they did take their music, songs and dances with them.

English folk and traditional music is routinely ignored even in our own media. When mentioned on popular TV programmes it's usually to disparage it and lau6gh at it. English songs, dances and tunes are routinely attributed to other countries and the close historical links between English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk music covered up with ethno-nationalist claptrap ... and now it seems it's being written out of North American musical history too.

Did you notice the title of thread and the specific question" Thanks for the intelligence that English music had an influence of music in the US, Captain Obvious.

Poor England! Sadly ignored while screwing ireland over for centuries. Agreed, it's never a good idea to ignore the history of violent colonial oppression.

This is how cultural imperialism works. I'm asking about Irish immigrants to Appalachia, and you're specifically telling me that the really important thing I need to know is about clog dancing in who gives a sh*t.

Let me be clear: the fact that English folk culture exerted a large influence of folk culture in the US is indeed Very well known. In the early 20th century, it's closely connected to racial anglo saxonism: for example, John Powell and the White Top Folk Festival https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Powell_(musician) For what it's worth, This very same John Powell, advocate of English folk music, declared my great great grandfather a black man, making me legally a black man in the state in which I now reside. It was part of his effort to preserve the purity and primacy of anglo saxon culture.

http://theaporetic.com/?p=54




But let's make sure to not let the focus slip off England.

The focus is the absence of flute in American vernacular music.

But I will address your comment. What is simplistically and conveniently overlooked is that a monolithic sense of ‘English’ as a unified sense of dominant nationhood is ironically pretty much irrelevant in regard to the destruction wrought on our vernacular culture. The reason, like most of our social injustice, is attributable to our class structure and the radical and massive social upheaval in our physical and psychic landscape as a consequence of the industrial revolution and urbanisation. The issue is one of suppression and economic influence within a society; nothing at all to do with other societies beyond our borders. But that does not fit the need of those who seek to align against what they require to be a simplistically defined, and singular, undifferentiated enemy. When understood in class-interest terms ordinary working people of whatever origin tend to have a common specific enemy - elites and the agendas of self-interested power brokers.