Flute lips question

[jim stone]

Nothing's coming up, I'm afraid. Anyhow I've said what (obviously) I do think.
Can't save people from themselves. Good luck to all.

[bogman]

The page is kind of funny, mostly blank at the top but if you scroll down the article is there.

[Maeloc]

I'm a beginner and I have the same problem, a big teardrop; you shouldn't don't worry about it, at least from my experience

[Denny]

you are being coherent again...

[jemtheflute]

Crookedtune's post is brilliant - providing you like dogs,......

More seriously, have a look at this http://www.larrykrantz.com/embpic.htm on embouchure shapes observed in professional level classical players – if they can do it to a high orchestral standard......

From personal observation I can also say that a good many top quality trad players also use eccentric lip-apertures of various kinds. If you can use a central aperture that is probably the best thing to try to do, but not being able to does not disqualify anyone from playing.

The James Galway video already linked (and I think there are others linked from that one) is also recommended viewing.

[bogman]

That's a great link jemtheflute. Judging by these pics even a camel could play the flute with enough dedication!

[Julia Delaney]

This thread is mostly pure crap. But this is good: creating their embouchure to one side.
And somebody else mentioned eccentric embouchure. Ciaran Somers is a great flute-player and he has sort of a side blown style. This is a quote from the fluteline site that jem mentioned earlier:

For most people, a centered embouchure works best. However, if a student has a prominent teardrop top lip, it may be necessary to play off-center. Many prominent flutists past and present have had an off-center embouchure. Jean-Pierre Rampal and the late Marcel Moyse are notable examples. (Note how relaxed Moyse's cheeks are in the photo) So, M. Beaver, there's your answer. You can ride the flute side-saddle.

Most of the rest of the article isn't very relevant to what we do as players of the wooden flute. Except for these closing lines:
Ask flutists whose playing you respect how they make their sound. With intelligence, determination and practice you can find a flexible embouchure which will allow you to express yourself through your instrument.
Except that you don't even have to ask them. Just watch and listen and then try...

You might try taking the body off the flute. Just try to get a consistently good sound by holding only the head joint and blowing across the embouchure hole. And when the flute is assembled, try to get a good sound with no fingers covering the holes.

[dunnp]

Nice post from Julia above

Did anyone else ever notice when you hand your flute to a Boehm player they can get lovely bell clear second octave tones but cannot play the first or struggle with the first? ( here I dont't mean experts but new comers to wooden or folks who played in school/college etc.but have not in a while)

Not sure we should be looking to them for tips in general we are after something different in our tone. (well I am now after spending years trying to get rid of the rasp now I am trying to develop it)

I play against the right top corner, for me it helps me feel I'm covering the thing. It works for me but I have miles to go. Will it work for others? I wouldnt presume so.

My feeling is that blaming your lips is an excuse for lack of practice.
Its a bit of a myth that some folks are physically better at it than others.
It kinda puts all the hard work they've done in the background when really its the foreground of playing well.

[LorenzoFlute]

Its a bit of a myth that some folks are physically better at it than others.

Well, some are... But it's just like talent, put some extra effort and you'll get there or close enough even if you don't have much of it.

[jemtheflute]

Right, I've been meaning to compile another of my help sheet documents on this topic for a while. I hope some of what's in it may be of some use. It will probably get amended and extended in due course, but here's the first version: Flute Embouchure

[dunnp]

Oh yes how can I forget talent that thing that just taps some people on the shoulder and not others. Those talented folks just wake up playing perfectly without having to do the work.

Again listen to clips, recordings etc. with a CRITICAL ear. Develop that ear than try and emulate that playing.

Listen rather than read about it. oh and mess about till you have it.
Do the work
otherwise you'll end up on here like most blaming your lip shape, your lack of "talent"
or your flute.

How did folk make do before the internet guru?
The old timers we love.
They did the work.
You could say that immersion in a musical culture and direct teaching took its place but in reality most players I've heard describe the process of folk transmission as a more lonely situation of constant practice for the love of it. In other words they sat down and did the work.
They practiced! They didn't emerge from the womb playing the Bucks!

[Maeloc]

But this is good: creating their embouchure to one side.
And somebody else mentioned eccentric embouchure. Ciaran Somers is a great flute-player and he has sort of a side blown style. This is a quote from the fluteline site that jem mentioned earlier:
"For most people, a centered embouchure works best. However, if a student has a prominent teardrop top lip, it may be necessary to play off-center. Many prominent flutists past and present have had an off-center embouchure. Jean-Pierre Rampal and the late Marcel Moyse are notable examples. (Note how relaxed Moyse's cheeks are in the photo)" So, M. Beaver, there's your answer. You can ride the flute side-saddle.
.

My teacher also plays off-center and her lips are normal, for some reason she finds it more comfortable, but has discouraged me from trying to play that way until I have a reasonable control over what I'm doing;

A high profile or experienced player can easily change whatever detail in his playing, but I don't think a beginner should start try to play off-center, and less without the help of a teacher o a fellow player;

All I'm saying is that first comes developing breathing, embouchure and posture according to dunnp, Jem (thanks for the document) and Julia Delaney great advice, and then, only if necessary, trying to play off-center

[Maeloc]

sorry for the double post, someone please delete this

[AngelicBeaver]

Okay, I've got this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJMiuFHe ... e=youtu.be

But seriously, I made some really strong sounds on the low end of the flute yesterday, but I couldn't work my way very far up the flute, so I am encouraged (especially with all the similarly deformed people posting ) that with practice I can eventually play with a reasonable measure of awesomeness. Maybe ten years from now (if the board survives) I'll post my after video (and hopefully it will make beginners feel better).

[david_h]

Jem's instructions look great. Maybe suggest the option of sitting down during the dizzy period at the start ?

I wonder if it would help beginners to give an idea how long it takes to make progress ? I wonder how much it varies.

It took me a week to get from first sounds to hyperventilating though an out of tune 'Amazing Grace' in the bottom octave. That was almost an hour per day in 5 minute bursts on new, needed-to-be-broken-in, wooden flute.