Why a lot are selling flutes and few are buying....

[Denny]

he did exceed the four letter ones

[Jon C.]

I think one of the reasons people aren't buying is because the sellers haven't lowered their prices enough, similar to the housing market. We all want to think that our flutes have maintained a value near the new sales price, but, like equity in homes and home values, it's market-based and fluctuates based on the economy. Could also be true of flute maker prices as well.

This is a very good point. I know with the antique flutes, the value dropped almost over night. this is difficult if you have bought it at the premium price, like the housing market, you might find yourself "underwater" on the sale. I think quality is still getting the top price.
Such is life...

[Casey Burns]

The thing is Jon, I really can't afford to lower my prices and I suspect this is the case with other makers who depend upon instrument making for their livelihoods. I have a mortgage to pay, health insurance (not cheap as we have to buy this ourselves and I am 55 and my wife is 61 and the premium just went up 20%), medical bills, and a daughter in college.

Also, to what degree would I have to lower my prices to make a difference? 10%? 20% 50%? I figure if a person can't afford one of my $375 flutes, they still won't be able to afford them at $350 or $325 or $300.

Fortunately people are still ordering at my current prices so again there is no reason to change them.

One has to draw a line somewhere, and mine is to not find myself subsidizing others' musical hobbies and passions at my expense by selling my flutes under the cost of making them (which includes a certain amount of value added). It seems reasonable to expect a fairly professional income after doing this 29 years. So it means that many can't afford my more expensive instruments. But many can still afford the Folk Flute, and I do a brisk business with these usually. Should flute sales stop, I have other ideas up my sleeve that will keep me employed once I run out of queue, such as expanding my wholesale presence, maybe doing a flute kit for wood turners, instructional videos and teaching. Or making bagpipes of various sorts. Or a small handed low whistle. Or something totally different (Ukuleles are really hot right now. See my daughter's latest song "Young Hearts Young Minds" at www.ukulelehunt.com ). But so far I am maintaining a steady 5-8 months of queue and have been for some time. So I may never get around to these other ideas, unless I want to.

There are some deals out there and I've grabbed a few to have, and also for investment. I found a first edition of Ed Ricketts' classic book on intertidal ecology from 1939 "Between Pacific Tides" for sale for $275. Actually I found two of them and a fellow "Ed Head" got the other. For those who don't know, Ed was the "template" for "Doc" in Steinbeck's Cannery Row. There is one of these for sale on eBay right now for about $699. A few years ago during the Steinbeck Centennial you probably couldn't touch one of these and these are the first 3 I had seen for sale anywhere in 20 years! This one was owned by the founding editor of the "Veliger" and probably knew Steinbeck and Ricketts himself.

In the flute world there have been some very interesting flutes on eBay, such as Prattens and Rudalls. These seem attractive until one looks closer at them and sees that they'll need some restoration and then TLC to play. But its great that this is now a choice for those looking for a keyed instrument. Its surprising that some of these have been going for less than some of my keyed flutes. But then a number of my clients prefer my smaller handed flutes, rather than the finger stretches of a Pratten. So do I, which is why I do not make a Pratten copy. Plus when you get a flute from a modern maker, everything usually works, the flute is pitched at modern pitch, the flute can be tweaked if necessary and there is a warranty besides. Many of the old flutes are Cocus and quite a few react to this, even with an antique instrument. Or they'll start playing a bone dry instrument to see it open up all over the place. I have seen this over the years.

Such flutes were quite easily available in the 70s and 80s when many of us were just getting started. Then the Japanese bubble happened and I remember a perfect Rudall in boxwood going at auction (Sothebys no less) for around $5K at the time. A few months before I had a chance to buy a similar instrument from Richard Cook, also flawless. But I was only in the 4th year of my flute making and was essentially living flute to flute if that - so the idea of spending $1800 on something was totally out of the question! At least I took careful measurements of it, and my friend Mindy has it, should I ever need to look at it again. But even though such flutes were available and common (Artichoke Music in Portland had 7 or 8 of them, and Lark in the Morning down in Mendocino had dozens), I found that people were still interested in new flutes made to modern specs. Thus in 1981, during one of the worst recessions in the Pacific Northwest ("Would the last person to leave Seattle, please turn out the lights?" said one billboard near Boeing's plant), I started my instrument career and only took a few breaks, once a "sabbatical" when I went to work at Dusty Strings in their harp making department before their holiday rush, and once for a few years to build our house. With the Internet I was able to go global and business has been good since.

There are a few flutes I would want to have that may be lurking out there. Some of the boxwood Firth, Hall and Ponds etc. in higher pitches such as F, G and A. Someday if I am lucky.

This is an enjoyable discussion for once. Nice to see something other than "Flute For Sale, Cheap! Prices Lowered!"

Casey

[Denny]

Boeing...

[talasiga]

......
We all want to think that our flutes have maintained a value near the new sales price, but, like equity in homes and home values, it's market-based and fluctuates based on the economy. Could also be true of flute maker prices as well.

I dont think so.
Exorbitance (in prices as in house prices) is market based
and needs to fluctuate with the economic situation
whereas the baseline cost of hand made flutes is not (relatively)and cannot.

[Akiba]

Casey,

I get your point and thank you for being so upfront about your situation. Very interesting. Glad to hear you're still doing relatively well.

Just to clarify, my point about prices seeming high was aimed more at the resale market, not necessarily at the from-maker/new market. That idea was more of a speculative after-thought.

Cheers,

Jason

[Casey Burns]

Jason,
Some of the prices in the used market are indeed coming down and that is normal. What is different this time is the degree. But then, each flute is a mixed bag. Some are great and some aren't. Be interesting to track eBay auctions for antique flutes.
Casey

[jemtheflute]

Be interesting to track eBay auctions for antique flutes.

Well, I don't do so objectively/statistically, but I do watch almost everything coming through, and subjectively I don't really detect any overall change in price levels. At the lower end - nach Meyers, HP Bb band flutes etc. - if anything it seems to me they have been pulling slightly higher prices this year than they were a couple of years back, and there are plenty about. I have been keeping a record of all the Rudalls passing by on eBay and (less thoroughly) from other sources visible online, and in the 3-4 years I have been doing so, again I do not detect any real downwards trend in pricing/prices achieved. Overall they have remained stable or trended slightly upward. Sure, there are anomalies, both high and low, and I do think (again subjectively) that perhaps more high end "interesting" flutes (such as bepoq's Bb Grinter and some collectible antique Bohm flutes) are going unsold for longer - the market is slower and there are some "bargains" to be had at the top end (still spending serious money, though) either because sellers are desperate (up to a point) or because there is less competition in auctions.

I've only had a couple of medium quality/price re-furbed English 8-keyers to sell myself this last year, but I got the prices I wanted for them with a little patience and without too much difficulty.

[Casey Burns]

Thanks! That's useful to know.

[dow]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, Casey. I suspect that what we're seeing (and this may have been mentioned before... I started reading this thread last week, and just got back to it now, so I'm a little fuzzy on what went before and don't have time now to re-read the posts) is primarily the result of the wanna-gotta-needa-have-it-now crowd waking up and realizing, "Man, where'd all these flutes come from?" Personally, I buy few instruments,preferring to have enough to play and only upgrading (usually) when I find something appreciably better or with features significantly different from what I already have. Then I do my best to pass along the existing instrument to make room for the new one. Does this make me different form a lot of people? While I hope not, observations indicate that it probably does (an example is my step-son's father and step-mom. They have 13 tv's in a household of five people ). A personal example of my own reasons for selling an instrument is that I'd like to take up the uilleann pipes, but in order to do so I need a practice set. As this is a non-essential expense, I owe it to myself and my family to fund it as wisely as I can. Hence my McGee GLP is for sale. It's a great flute, but since getting the Hall and Son six key from Jon three years back, I seldom play the McGee. It doesn't take up much room, but it does tie up dollars that could be better spent elsewhere. Am I desperate to sell it? Not really, but I would like to move forward on the pipes thing. There's only so much room for instruments in my life, so before another can come in, one has to move on.

Does this have anything to do with your subject? I'm not sure, but I did want to let folks know that not everyone is selling because of a "bad economy." Regardless of what the media tells us, I refuse to believe that the sky is actually falling or even significantly cracked. My experience has been that people tend to do about as well or poorly as they decide to do. I've heard where people say, "there are no jobs here," but what I see and what I think that they should be saying is, "There are no jobs here that I'm willing to take." By this I mean that the job I left eleven years ago paid $6.50/hr, and while it wasn't a great wage, I made it work. I now make a gob more than that, but if push came to shove, I could do it again. Do I want to? Certainly not. But would I? Absolutely. Before I take unearned money from any man, I'll gladly dig ditches in the rain.

Oops. Kind of got off subject there. Sorry.

[Casey Burns]

Its interesting to hear peoples' tales of buying and selling.

For me this year has been a buying year, thanks to a little bit of inheritance money that came in at the beginning of the year (its mostly all spent or put away for retirement), as well as trades with other makers. I got the guitar of my dreams from Shelley Park up in Vancouver, a lovely Favino-inspired Gypsy Jazz guitar in East Indian Rosewood, Bearclaw Spruce and Mahogany. Then I traded with some of the Gaita makers in Spain who wanted some of my flutes to use for Galician Music in exchange for Gaita parts. Some of these were for bagpipes for local players. But I ended up with a great blackwood Gaita in D, as well as a boxwood Gaita that can be played in G, A or Bb (I have chanters for each pitch and the drones and reeds adjust to these pitches) by Oli Xiraldez with chanters by Lois Mourino. I also traded one of my low flutes for a straight soprano sax.

At this point my only instrument desires are probably another soprano sax in C, and maybe an Albert System Clarinet in C - both for playing Jazz. Then I'll be sated.

I looked on eBay to see what flutes have sold in the last 30 days. Here are the results:

1837 Godfroy Conical Boehm $2036
Boosey Pratten $2030
Butler 4 Key $95.38
Siccama System Flute $1261
Boosey (Pratten not specified - something done long after Pratten died - but acoustically the same probably) $550
8 Key Grinter Bb - reserve not met but the bidding went to $3500
All prices in US dollars

These are impressively low prices - especially the Butler - someone got a deal perhaps. Looking at the first 2 which are essentially 8 keyed flutes of good quality - that price is amazing. My 6 keyed flutes with rings and slide, hand forged keys in blackwood go for $3800. I suspect I won't be selling too many of these in the future. But I might start casting keys which could be a lower cost option.

Casey

[sjcavy]

I'm going to say that the Flute Kit option would be absolutely awesome!!!! That's a great idea. I know a bunch of people who would jump on that just for the challenge. You should def. think about that some more! This thread is great by the way. I'd like to see what the Uilleann forum would have to say on the subject.

[keithsandra]

Casey:

http://business.highbeam.com/industry-r ... nstruments

This is the web site for marketing data on musical instruments. The report is a bit general for your niche marketing needs, but it has some interesting observations on the musical instrument market.

Googling "wind instruments marketing data" will get you other sources and the firms that are already familiar with the musical instrument manufacturing market. They might have "off the shelf" whistle and/or flute data they'd let you have cheap(?!).

The best way for you to go is to get your own marketing report by hiring one of these companies - maybe making a cooperative financial pooling effort with other flute and whistle makers and interested parties?

A university with marketing courses might be interested in adding a few questions specific to your niche in any polling they are considering getting their students to do as part of their courses. That's probably the cheapest way to go.

Just a few thoughts.

K.

[Casey Burns]

I suppose in the right hands that kind of marketing data could be very useful. I am just curious about the flutes and other instruments people are trying to unload here now. Is it due to poverty, recent unemployment, or some other factor? Such as wanting to trade up, fund another instrument, or they just have too much stuff....

I hired a close friend who is a marketer and he analyzed my business from my records top to bottom, and looked at what we could glean online about other makers. Very useful data. Its helped me make some wise decisions and focus on what is needed most out there. In terms of general trends in the musical instrument market I discuss this with other makers I know nearby and far. In some niches, orders haven't slowed down. I know one maker (not of flutes) who simply stopped taking orders, so that she could catch up on her queue. I know others who are making instruments on spec, and then selling them. many with <1 year queues such as myself. Its all over the board.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Casey

[littlejohngael]

Also, to what degree would I have to lower my prices to make a difference? 10%? 20% 50%? I figure if a person can't afford one of my $375 flutes, they still won't be able to afford them at $350 or $325 or $300.

I have to chime in and agree with you, Mr. Burns. I've been trying to save up for one of your Folk Flutes for quite awhile. Everytime I get anywhere near the ballpark, something comes up -- short on the mortgage, electricity bill, water bill, etc. Dropping your price from $375 to $300 wouldn't really help.

As I figure it, someday I'll save enough to have one. And that will make it all the more special. Till then, I'll toot away on my Tipple and my Erik the Flutemaker bamboo flutes.

Keep up the prices and the great work.

Ken
/Little John