Embouchure for the low notes

[benhall.1]

Haven't got round to your rubber band test, Denny, largely because Jem sems to have hit it square on the head. Part of me's happy, and part of me is now a bit concerned for poor ol' Rolly. All three pewter plugs are definitely leaking, per the suck test. I've put some bore oil on them, and they're 100% better ... but still not right. So I need to get them fixed.

How far I turn it? Well, maybe you've got a point, Jem, and maybe not ... What I do think was happening, after a bit of analysis etc, is that the pewter plugs were leaking AND I was compensating (or trying to) by over-working my fingers. The notes are - for the very short term, while this oil lasts - coming out most of the time now.

Now, two other questions arise:

1) I know, looking back that I could play those low notes much better once the flute had warmed up, and better on some days than on others. Are those pewter plugs susceptible to changes in temperature/humidity etc? and

2) I've always had trouble on this flute with what I call the middle D. D one octave up, in other words. Could this be due to a leaky Eb pewter plug, and not to my crap fingering, as I had previously thought?

[Denny]

yup (the Eb plug)

yer gonna figure out this plumbin' thing!

[jemtheflute]

Now, two other questions arise:

1) I know, looking back that I could play those low notes much better once the flute had warmed up, and better on some days than on others. Are those pewter plugs susceptible to changes in temperature/humidity etc? and

2) I've always had trouble on this flute with what I call the middle D. D one octave up, in other words. Could this be due to a leaky Eb pewter plug, and not to my crap fingering, as I had previously thought?

1) Moisture from condensation on the plugs doing what the oil is now doing, only less well - yes, possibly, but I doubt it'd be quite what you said.

2) Yes.

[benhall.1]

2) Yes.

Have you been speaking to that Denny again?

[jemtheflute]

Have you been speaking to that Denny again?

Not on your n..... er, I mean, thread.

Actually, we cross-posted - he got in just ahead of me but after I'd typed mine.

[flutefry]

Thanks for starting this thread. I have three 8 key flutes, two modern, and a R+R (4117, clawed overlap of C and C# keys). I don't have a problem getting the C and C# with the modern flutes, so conclude that I don't have an embouchure problem, and also conclude that I can line up my fingers on holes and keys. On the the R+R, the C# always sounds, but isn't as robust as on the modern flutes. , The C only works once a month or so, but when it does, it's like the C#-there, but not especially strong.

I assume that the issue with the C is a leak. In a suck test, the leak occurs because the C# key doesn't close when depressed by the C key, rather than being a problem with the C plug. This seems visible when looking at the plugs when the keys are being depressed-the C# plug doesn't go down as far when depressed by the C key as it is when it's depressed by the C# key alone. Clearly it's not a problem with the C# plug because when it is depressed by the C# key, the C# sounds easily. These observations would fit with Terry's idea that I have to make sure I close both keys at the same time instead of relying on the C, so I'll go home and try that.

Do more experienced fettlers have a suggestion for me about how to improve this issue? Perhaps it might help Ben as well. FWIW I have tried oil and plug rotation without it making a difference. I am quite prepared to find it is me, as two experienced repairers have said that the foot keys work OK.

Anyone make replacement pewter plugs? The ones I have are rather pitted. I don't want to risk "smoothing" them in case I make them out of round. But comparing new plugs to old ones suggests that new plugs wouldn't do any harm...

Cheers,
Hugh

[jemtheflute]

Hugh, several issues here.

First, if the interlinking of the keys doesn't work properly (and on a Rudall it should), there is probably some need for adjustment. It may be that the gap is caused by loss of an original very thin cork buffer on the ledge of the C# touch on which the C touch bears in conjoined use. My own #4683 has none, but I long ago adjusted the keys (by judicious metal bending) to co-ordinate their action perfectly. I didn't think there was supposed to be cork on the ledge.... but when I recently refurbished #4298 (which came in pretty much its original state, purse pads and all) it clearly had the remains of old cork or possibly card/paper shellacked on that ledge - so I renewed it with the thinnest modern sheet cork. I'm thinking of putting some on my own flute and re-adjusting the keys when I get around to it - would reduce the clacking a trifle. Buffer cork or no, it is possible to regulate the grasshopper keys to work correctly unless (as on some cheaper, less well made flutes) the key-proportions and set-up are not correct. I've done pretty well even on some of those!

Second, the pewters. They can build up layers of corrosion products (presumably lead oxides), especially if the flute has suffered from over-enthusiastic oiling. Getting rid of that and having a clean, white-metal surface can help but you are right to be wary of digging the contact surfaces or eroding them irregularly. However the pewter is quite soft. My own plugs at intervals develop impressed rings around them that cause them to stick in the receiving plates. I then rub them smooth/back into shape with a smooth, round piece of steel, being very careful not to significantly change the chamfer angle or rub them out of round. You can then put the key-sections back on their pins and, holding the plugs down with a handy piece of wood and cradling the foot-joint on something soft over a firm surface, gently tap the wood with a mallet to press the pewters into their plates, rotate them a bit and repeat a few times. Don't overdo it or you'll make dent-rings, of course! Unless your original pewters have really cracked up, you won't need to replace them and should be able to get them working properly with care and patience.

If you have much of a patinated deposit on the contact surface of the plugs, that could of course cause or contribute to the de-synchronised key-action as well as being the source of leaks. By the same token, getting rid of it may change that situation..... so do things in logical order. First clean and re-fit your plugs and get them sealing, then cork the C# contact plate, then regulate the action.

[benhall.1]

You're really good at getting pewter plugs to seal properly without harming them, aren't you Jem? BTW, I'm so pleased to have Small back (my beautiful little Jemtheflute piccolo).

And when are you coming over next?

[jemtheflute]

Is that hearts smiley in the right place?

Dunno when another trip will be viable. (Enjoyed last one!) Cider supply may be a key indicator.

Let's just say I have a record with pewter plugs (not always "harmless", though! look what I went through with that Keith Prowse last year!) and indeed with fettling grasshopper keys to get them working optimally. Could be becoming a specialty.

[jemtheflute]

Oh yes, Ben, don't you think you should perhaps change the thread title as we seem to have established embouchure is not at issue now? Think of all those poor innocents who might enter the thread seeking enlightenment on one of our Board's and the flute's great Mysteries and discover it has swiftly turned to fingering and leaky plugs!

[benhall.1]

Let 'em all come!

Meanwhile, there's nowt wrong with the grasshopper keys - perfect, they are. It's the plugs.

[Denny]

ya should'a drilled a thumb hole

[jemtheflute]

Let 'em all come!

Meanwhile, there's nowt wrong with the grasshopper keys - perfect, they are. It's the plugs.

I was referring to Hugh flutefry's plugs, not yours. Anyway, yours look just fine, very clean, no patination or encrustation - like brand new, in fact: they just aren't sealing.

The miscreant in question is second from L, my own flute being far R and #4298 between them.


#4298 and to a lesser extent my own show some of the typical encrustation/patination of the pewter - I believe it is a combination of corrosion products &/or surface oxidation with oil deposition. The two to the L are clean as a whistle and look like new-cast and turned ones would.

[jemtheflute]

ya should'a drilled a thumb hole

Wrong thread, Denny? Or did ya mean in his head? He still hasn't explained the location.

[Denny]

Wrong "C", wrong "Thumb", wrong

Ima Whoal