CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
User avatar
Akiba
Posts: 1189
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:09 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I am an Irish flute player and whistler. I have been a member since 2007? This has been one of the most informative sites on Irish flute I have found.
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Akiba »

Gabriel wrote:Yes, I will probably send one out for a tour sooner or later, perhaps from the next batch which is due to be finished in a few weeks. I'll let you all know when the tour starts...

Here's a quick 'n dirty clip from the cellar. I'm playing #4 there. I'll do a video next weekend.
I knew that being a great player, you'd make a great flute. Sounds excellent.

Is it a mopane, kingwood or blackwood flute?

jason
User avatar
m31
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:21 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: ...next door to the Milky Way...

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by m31 »

Nice tone!
http://www.gabrielflutes.com/?page=materials&lang=en wrote:The inner tuning slide is always made from brass. The outer slide is usually nickel/german silver, but I can also offer solid brass (no surcharge) or silver (at a considerable premium).
As a suggestion, I don't recommend that the slide be made from two different metals as this may one day lead to electrolytic locking.
User avatar
Jon C.
Posts: 3526
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I restore 19th century flutes, specializing in Rudall & Rose, and early American flutes. I occasionally make new flutes. Been at it for about 15 years.
Location: San Diego

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Jon C. »

m31 wrote:Nice tone!
http://www.gabrielflutes.com/?page=materials&lang=en wrote:The inner tuning slide is always made from brass. The outer slide is usually nickel/german silver, but I can also offer solid brass (no surcharge) or silver (at a considerable premium).
As a suggestion, I don't recommend that the slide be made from two different metals as this may one day lead to electrolytic locking.
Electrolysis shouldn't be a problem, between yellow brass, white brass (nickel silver) and sterling Silver. Now if he used a steel liner with copper, then that might be a problem. It is always a good idea to use a slide grease on the slides anyway.
"I love the flute because it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath. I can feel my breath with my fingers. It's as if I'm speaking from my soul..."
Michael Flatley


Jon
User avatar
Jon C.
Posts: 3526
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I restore 19th century flutes, specializing in Rudall & Rose, and early American flutes. I occasionally make new flutes. Been at it for about 15 years.
Location: San Diego

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Jon C. »

Gabriel wrote:Yes, I will probably send one out for a tour sooner or later, perhaps from the next batch which is due to be finished in a few weeks. I'll let you all know when the tour starts...

Here's a quick 'n dirty clip from the cellar. I'm playing #4 there. I'll do a video next weekend.
Sounds great!
Be careful when you send the ambassador flute out, that it doesn't end up lost under someones bed! :poke:
"I love the flute because it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath. I can feel my breath with my fingers. It's as if I'm speaking from my soul..."
Michael Flatley


Jon
Gabriel
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Gabriel »

That's the main reason why I don't send out one of the couple I have here at the moment...need to raise funds to be able to afford a potentially lost flute before I sent it out! But that's always the problem with tours...

Thanks for the support, Jon. I should mention that Jon helped me a lot while I was starting out. Without his support and endless patience I wouldn't be as far as I am now with making flutes.

Edit: I'm playing a mopane flute in the clip.
onkel
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 5:44 am
antispam: No
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by onkel »

Great news!!! I'd love to try out your d flutes, still did not have a chance. How about you coming to Bramsche tomorrow night? There is a flute class there with some potential buyers maybe...
Beste Grüße!
Claus
User avatar
m31
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:21 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: ...next door to the Milky Way...

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by m31 »

Jon C. wrote:
m31 wrote:Nice tone!
http://www.gabrielflutes.com/?page=materials&lang=en wrote:The inner tuning slide is always made from brass. The outer slide is usually nickel/german silver, but I can also offer solid brass (no surcharge) or silver (at a considerable premium).
As a suggestion, I don't recommend that the slide be made from two different metals as this may one day lead to electrolytic locking.
Electrolysis shouldn't be a problem, between yellow brass, white brass (nickel silver) and sterling Silver. Now if he used a steel liner with copper, then that might be a problem. It is always a good idea to use a slide grease on the slides anyway.
One of my flutes, an eBay acquisition, had a very stuck tuning slide. Unfortunately I don't have it anymore but the slide wasn't copper and I don't recall that it was steel. After the slide was forcefully released, there were indications of corrosion and not just gummed up oils as I recall. It polished up nicely though and worked just fine afterward.

If I understand correctly, the more the metals are galvanically dissimilar, the greater likelihood of corrosion. Aluminum and brass might be another bad combo but it's used for some whistle tuning slides.
User avatar
Rob Sharer
Posts: 1682
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:32 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Either NC, Co. Clare, or Freiburg i.B., depending...

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Rob Sharer »

m31 wrote: As a suggestion, I don't recommend that the slide be made from two different metals as this may one day lead to electrolytic locking.

So, you've got me curious....what is your background in flute construction?


Rob
Gabriel
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Gabriel »

Well, almost every maker does it that way, so it can't be too wrong. Making the entire tuning slide from sterling silver just generates cost (about 150-200 euro more per flute), but doesn't make the flute a better one. Nickel silver actually is just brass with some nickel added (which, by the way, is known for providing protection against corrosion), so a slide made from brass and nickel silver or nickel silver throughout shouldn't make a big difference. I can imagine that a tuning slide can stick together if not moved for a long time (talking about a few decades), and that seems to happens sometimes with antique flutes, but I am pretty sure that this won't happen if the flute is played regularly and the slide lubricated. I use "La Tromba" slide grease for that which works nicely, gives a smooth action and smells good. ;)
User avatar
Rob Sharer
Posts: 1682
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:32 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Either NC, Co. Clare, or Freiburg i.B., depending...

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Rob Sharer »

Gabriel wrote:Well, almost every maker does it that way, so it can't be too wrong. Making the entire tuning slide from sterling silver just generates cost (about 150-200 euro more per flute), but doesn't make the flute a better one. Nickel silver actually is just brass with some nickel added (which, by the way, is known for providing protection against corrosion), so a slide made from brass and nickel silver or nickel silver throughout shouldn't make a big difference. I can imagine that a tuning slide can stick together if not moved for a long time (talking about a few decades), and that seems to happens sometimes with antique flutes, but I am pretty sure that this won't happen if the flute is played regularly and the slide lubricated. I use "La Tromba" slide grease for that which works nicely, gives a smooth action and smells good. ;)

For the record, Gabriel, I think you're fine there; the world is full of antique flutes with fully functional, dissimilar-metal tuning slides. Your flutes look great. I'm looking forward to a visit with the ambassador flute when it makes the rounds.


Meanwhile, I would still like to know where the advice on the other side is coming from.


Rob
User avatar
Latticino
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:30 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Upstate NY

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Latticino »

Meanwhile, I would still like to know where the advice on the other side is coming from
Rob,

While it is certainly eminently reasonable to speak from years of experience in performance of a trade, at times the blind adherence to tradition can get us to miss the potential for improvement. In the flute field the relatively rapid evolution of design of the simple system conical flute in the 18th to 19th century is good evidence of this. After all we wouldn’t have tuning slides at all if the early classic Baroque style flute had been termed “good enough” because that was the way it had always been done (not to say that Baroque flute don’t have their place).

If you are actually interested in knowing where m31 is coming from, instead of just dinging him for not being an instrument maker, he, who I’m sure can speak for himself, is referencing a well know phenomenon called electrochemical corrosion. This will take place, to a certain degree whenever there is a significant flow of water containing gaseous oxygen, which all water does, in or around a pipe line where two dissimilar metals are in direct contact. You may have seen it yourself at the connection to a domestic water heater where the copper house distribution lines are improperly tied directly into the steel water heater (now dielectric fittings, which have a plastic barrier to direct metal contact, are used to prevent this and save our heaters, but that is another story).

His recommendation was for a new flute maker, not one with hundreds of flutes under his belt. It was well meaning, even if a bit misguided. Where he went wrong was in discounting the relatively minimal quantity of fluid flow inside a flute, the proximity of brass (basically an alloy of copper and zinc) and nickel silver (an alloy of copper and nickel, often with an addition of zinc as well) on the electromotive-force series of metals, the action of the slide lubricant, the corrosion proofing characteristics of zinc and similar alloy additions, and the polish of the metal tubing used for the slides. Even with all of these, if a slide made of two dissimilar materials were to remain in direct contact over a very long period of time, in a particularly humid environment, there is a chance for corrosion to freeze the slide. As stated above, and by others, it is more likely with metals that are further apart on the electromotive-force series (like silver and chrome steel for example).

I am certain that Gabriel’s slides, as described, will function as needed for the lifetime of the flutes, and am in no way questioning their design. The flutes are lovely and from his clip they sound as good as they look. It is great to see another craftsman making instruments. I’m quite jealous as I’ve enjoyed doing some restorations, but not taken the plunge to manufacture.
"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it"
Steven Wright

"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."
Baron Munchausen
User avatar
m31
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:21 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: ...next door to the Milky Way...

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by m31 »

Rob Sharer wrote:
m31 wrote: As a suggestion, I don't recommend that the slide be made from two different metals as this may one day lead to electrolytic locking.

So, you've got me curious....what is your background in flute construction?


Rob
Now how come you're not asking me if I'm a metallurgist or corrosion engineer? Strictly speaking, competence can only be reliably assessed by the competent (y'know, it takes one to know one?). And since competence can never be fully established or even authenticated in a forum such as this, I guess no one has a right to speak?
the world is full of antique flutes with fully functional, dissimilar-metal tuning slides.
And there are gobs of antique flutes with locked slides (granted for any number of reasons). I even (had) own some of them, including the aforementioned flute which was only 1980's vintage.
Gabriel
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Gabriel »

Can we split this discussion into a seperate thread please?

m31, you can be assured that if I'll ever encounter one of my slides being stuck due to electrolytic locking, I'll be more than happy to reconsider it's construction and solve the problem for the flute's owner free of charge. Until now it served me well, and on all the flutes I ever encountered that were not made by myself, it did serve me well, too.
User avatar
m31
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:21 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: ...next door to the Milky Way...

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by m31 »

Agreed, sorry (ad hominemers irk me). I'd love to play one of your flutes.
Gabriel
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: CP: Steffen Gabriel wooden flutes | FS: Rudalls in D

Post by Gabriel »

Here are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEboYquYiwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtWKdFSqJ7s

I used a Sennheiser MD441 microphone for audio recording.
Post Reply