Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by MTGuru »

Ross Daly wrote:Celtic music, in general, is essentially a modal musical tradition, a fact which reflects its very ancient origin.
If "ancient" means "pre-Baroque". :-) Or as the author says, pre-classical. Still, a pretty recent terminus ante quem.

It's always amusing that the popular imagination wants to see folk musics and traditions as "ancient". The impulse goes back to Romantic period antiquarianism of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and we're still stuck with it. Not to really dispute the author's basic description; I'm being pedantic. But arguably, European art music rests on the same continuity of Byzantine and Roman church music, and could claim to be equally "ancient". But not nearly as cool as ye olde mystical Celts. :-)
bradhurley wrote:Napoleon pretty much put a stop to that.
Yes, modern centralized French policy toward minority languages (and regionalism in general) has been both harsh and effective via "active neglect", hasn't it? And with minor concessions, continues today, AFAIK.
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by s1m0n »

I'm far more likely to believe that the modes in Breton dance music are a matter of what it's possible to get out of a Binioù kozh (high-pitched bagpipes) or Bombarde (howitzer), which are the instrument pair usually used to accompany Breton dances.

I didn't understand why until I was a gig/party in Montreal which was a benefit for a well-loved local musician who'd died young. Various musicians played, but the last group were a more or less standard trad band lineup of fiddle, flute, guitar, bouzouki etc. At midnight, however, the sound guy who'd come with the rented PA Started taking his gear down. As far as he was concerned, the show was over, and that's what his contract said. At the time, however, people had started breton dancing, and they didn't want to stop (Montreal bars are open til 3 am) The band tried to carry on without the sound system, but they could barely be heard over the sound of the crowd of dancers. Suddenly, two guys came into the room playing biniou & bombarde, which they'd gone out to their cars to get. (the crowd was almost entirely trad musicians from various local scenes, so the fact that someone there had a bombarde in his trunk was as unlikely as it would seem.) They had no trouble at all being heard. The band hastily put away their instruments and joined the dancers.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
User avatar
talasiga
Posts: 5199
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:33 am
antispam: No
Location: Eastern Australia

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by talasiga »

MTGuru wrote:......I'm being pedantic.
.......
Not quite. To be truly pedantic one needs to be excessively exact and CORRECTLY so.
Even your quoting acknowledgement is inappropriate because you have not yet sourced whether Ross Daly did actually say what you are quoting him as saying. Contrast this to saying "Diego Lolic says that Ross Daly..... wrote" which is different.
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
User avatar
talasiga
Posts: 5199
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:33 am
antispam: No
Location: Eastern Australia

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by talasiga »

MTGuru wrote:.....arguably, European art music rests on the same continuity of Byzantine and Roman church music, and could claim to be equally "ancient". But not nearly as cool as ye olde mystical Celts. :-)
That "ye olde mystical ...." comment strikes me as a cheap shot (smiley or not) and is kind of going to straw man stuff because Daly's music and projects are far from fairyland fantasy.

European Classical music does indeed share the common history but took a radical turn structurally and in flavours especially from around the end of the Renaissance. Every conservative treatise on European Music will tell you that and you know it. Putting experts aside, it is audible to even an uneducated ear.
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
User avatar
AaronMalcomb
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Bellingham, WA

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by AaronMalcomb »

talasiga wrote:
MTGuru wrote:......I'm being pedantic.
.......
Not quite. To be truly pedantic one needs to be excessively exact and CORRECTLY so.
:lol: Did that really just happen? :lol:

But yeah, Brad's comments and links are pretty true. I only had a brief exposure to Breton traditions while playing with a bagad among the Breton diaspora of Le Havre (second only to Paris for the largest Breton population outside of Brittany). I remember for a competition there was a proscribed terroir of some Ronds de Sautron. We were handed the partos and the band director showed us the dance steps. We didn't win the contest but we did win best dance interpretation. The dancing went on and on at the subsequent fest noz.

Other music recommendations are Skolvan and Skeduz. I also came a cross a fun, youngish group called Spontus. To get to the heart of it I'd recommend some sonneurs couples and some kan ha diskan. I will second the recommnedation of Pennou Skoulm. It's more familiar instrumentation for a less familiar tradition.
User avatar
Bran Ruz
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:38 pm
antispam: No
Location: Lorient (Bretagne)

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by Bran Ruz »

bradhurley wrote:
Diego Lolic wrote:During the interim period between the two world wars, approximately one and a half million people in Brittany were recorded as speaking the Breton language. Unfortunately this number dwindled by two thirds in the ensuing 50 years, but even today, the Breton language is anything but dead.
Speaking of the wars and Breton, the word "yes" in Breton is pronounced "yah" just like German "jah," and during the occupation of France in the Second World War some of the native Breton speakers were apparently either mistaken for Germans or of conspiring with Germans. So that's one of the reasons the language nearly died out; the bigger and earlier reason was the Revolution: in 1789 only half the people in France actually spoke any French; the country was a rich mosaic of cultures and languages. Napoleon pretty much put a stop to that. But it's kind of amazing to think that French has been spoken in Québec longer than it has been in most of France, apart from the region around Paris!

Today, of course, kids in Brittany can go to schools where only Breton is spoken (we have a friend who teaches at one), although my sense is that Breton is still nowhere near as ubiquitous or as widely spoken in Brittany as Irish is in Ireland. I don't think there's an equivalent to Irelands TG4 in Brittany, for example.
There is an earlier and more important reason than Napoleon to explain the decline of the Breton. I will try to resume it and I hope that my explanation (and my english :oops: ) will be clear.
At the beginning of the 20th century, and even between the two world wars, many peoples in Bretagne were still speaking breton but it was forbidden to speak breton in the public schools. There weren't schools where breton was teached or spoken, teachers weren't breton and children were systematically punished for using breton !!! (except of catholic schools, but it wasn't to defend the language, it was to keep an influence on people in Brittany in front of the laic state)
Why ? Just because the french republic has decided that french was the only language that should be used in France. This system worked so well for those generations that speaking breton slowly became a shame, it was synonymic of a lack of education. One of my grandmothers underwent that.
So these generations lost their own language, or didn't pass on it. At the beginning of the 20th, 1.200.000 people were speaking breton, now they are hardly 200.000.
French is a beautiful language, and all french governments all along the 20th and now have been defending this language everywhere in the name of diversity. They also like to defend minorities everywhere but why not in France ? Nothing or almost is done. Stupid ! Do what I say, not what I do !
There are nowadays very few public schools where breton is the first language, and it's hard to keep these schools. There are also some private schools like "Diwan" who try to defend breton but this should be a public thing.
In fact, the french republic has always been afraid of its minorities (well you know, all these people who speak another language might be dangereous for the state, they are different and it's bad, they could ask for their independence... ) like breton, basques, corses... all countries who have their own language and culture, as Brad said, France is still a mosaïc of culture, but of language ? France did not still ratify the European charter of the minoriatires languages !
Breton music and dances are very strong in Bretagne, but not the language, contrary to Wales I think while Ireland kept both music and language.
Image
User avatar
talasiga
Posts: 5199
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:33 am
antispam: No
Location: Eastern Australia

Celtic Ring

Post by talasiga »

Bran Ruz wrote:......I think while Ireland kept both music and language.
I think Ireland managed it with some revival efforts also after the British did in Ireland things in parallel to the French in Bretagne. You may be aware that Irish Gaelic language was banned by the Imperial British in Ireland. People were punished for speaking it, even convicted to Australia and the like.

After the Irish independence efforts were made to revive the language and Gaelic speaking settlements were established around Dublin of people from the Gaeltacht regions in Western Ireland as an example. There are institutions in Ireland such as Gael Linn set up to nurture the revival and sustenance of the language and culture.

This article, if i have read it correctly,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language
will tell you about the 19th century Gaelic Revival Movement and also
that only up to 80,000 Irish are native speakers of Irish Gaelic.
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
User avatar
Bran Ruz
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:38 pm
antispam: No
Location: Lorient (Bretagne)

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by Bran Ruz »

You're right, I wanted to say that Irish Gaelic language is maybe less in danger than breton. Education is national in France so for the french state, this language and this culture are not important. For example, Bretagne belongs to France since 1532 but at school everybody studies the history of France, there's nothing about the history of Bretagne then to 1532 it was one of oldest states of Europe !
France is one of the most centralized states which exist, regions have no autonomy, no financial means as Wales or the Scotland in the United Kingdom for example. The region of Bretagne can't do much.
More generally, the bilingualism is a chance and facilitates enormously the study of the other languages, thus to make nothing to help the preservation of minority languages is really stupid.
Image
User avatar
bradhurley
Posts: 2330
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by bradhurley »

Bran Ruz wrote:Why ? Just because the french republic has decided that french was the only language that should be used in France. This system worked so well for those generations that speaking breton slowly became a shame, it was synonymic of a lack of education.
That was my point when I said it was Napoleon's fault. :)

My girlfriend is from the Golfe du Morbihan and at nearly age 50 she is for the first time in her life starting to learn Breton; it was forbidden for her at school too, and for her parents as well. Her grandparents spoke some but because of that sense of shame it was rarely heard at home and never at school. We have friends around our age who did grow up speaking Breton and are fluent speakers, so I think it varied depending on where in the country you lived and how strong the nationalistic tendencies were.
User avatar
Bran Ruz
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:38 pm
antispam: No
Location: Lorient (Bretagne)

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by Bran Ruz »

Yes, and maybe you know these words from Morvan Lebesque " A chacun, l'âge venu, la découverte, ou l'ignorance", I'm not sure how to translate it but it's about the fact that you can grow up in Bretagne (I think it might be true in other countries) without knowing anything about breton culture, and that you can discover it or not however is your age.
My father speaks a little breton but decided to took lessons too when he was 55, I really discovered breton and celtic music when I was 15 or 16 with the Festival Interceltique but it's not thanks to the school. And I don't speak breton, just know some words.
Image
User avatar
kkrell
Posts: 4837
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Mostly producer of the Wooden Flute Obsession 3-volume 6-CD 7-hour set of mostly player's choice of Irish tunes, played mostly solo, on mostly wooden flutes by approximately 120 different mostly highly-rated traditional flute players & are mostly...
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by kkrell »

MTGuru wrote:
Diego Lolic wrote:The music of Brittany
by Ross DALY
Diego, do you have a source citation or link to the piece you posted, in order to give proper credit? Thanks!
I've sent you a copy of that article privately. I don't know if it's still on the web somewhere. My copy of the text was sent to me by Jean-Michel Veillon, when we were discussing his appearance on Wooden Flute Obsession volume 1.

Here's some biographical material on Ross Daly:

http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/j ... ?print=yes

http://worldmusiccentral.org/artists/ar ... hp?id=1836

Kevin Krell
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
https://www.worldtrad.org
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by MTGuru »

Yes, I got it, Kevin. Thank you.

Here's a link to the text of the now-disappeared article: Ross Daly, The Music of Brittany

I'm still not sure of the original source, but Ross can be contacted via his website: http://www.rossdaly.gr
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: Celtic Ring

Post by s1m0n »

talasiga wrote:
Bran Ruz wrote:......I think while Ireland kept both music and language.
I think Ireland managed it with some revival efforts also after the British did in Ireland things in parallel to the French in Bretagne. You may be aware that Irish Gaelic language was banned by the Imperial British in Ireland. People were punished for speaking it, even convicted to Australia and the like.
Brian Friel's play Translations is about just that.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
User avatar
pflipp
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:45 pm
antispam: No

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by pflipp »

I just wrote to s1m0n asking if he still had the tunebook; he already sold it. Seems like most other copies are gone as well.

Can anyone point me to a place where I can still order it, or recommend any other book?

I like Breton and would like to have a comprehensive real-paper tune book for my flute & music study.
loic
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:22 am
antispam: No
Location: toulouse, france

Re: Breton Music - Expert Help Needed

Post by loic »

as a "fest-noz"(breton bal) addict, I would strongly endorse what bradhurley or Bran Ruz said : even more than ITM, breton music is strongly related to dance. A bad dancer would generally play bad music, though there are exceptions. Breton music is all about emphasis and swing, and I would even say melodic movement (that's why I am not always keen on 'modern' composition).

What Ross Daly said about breton music is really neat as well, Breton music according to me is not harmonic but modal. Ancient singers and musicians played in uneven tuning, which gives I think a grand colour to this music. It is even possible to play in unequal scale with the flute with the help of cross-fingering, half-fingering and work on the mouth-piece.

In addition to Jean-Michel Veillon, who is the man who "invented" breton music for flute, you could also have an ear to what Sylvain Barou does with Jean-Charles Guichen : http://www.myspace.com/sylvainbarou
see for instance : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eixqhEftHdA .

Also I think the basic thing for breton music would remain singing. Listen to that for example :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0av-D1v6qw0 . I hope it illustrates what I wrote before about breton music.

for unequal breton music, breton champion 2009 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtCLsO8EbNo .

good listening and practice ! :)
Last edited by loic on Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply