Chiff and Fipple Forums

Heh heh, even:

IF (Mortgage > 0)
COPY McGee.flute McGee(n).flute
n = n+1
ELSE
GOTO Session
ENDIF

Terry

It must be a real balancing act Terry...that is,giving the customer a fair and competitave price for their Flute against the makers need to pay himself a fair price for his labours......
Compare the Flutemaker to a Tradesman who charges on an hourly basis for his services..For example,car repair workshops in my part of the world charge about $75 + an hour for their time...Imagine a Flutemaker charging their customers an hourly rate for their Flute.. ..No one could afford a Flute at all...
I remember back to my days of playing electric guitar in pub rock/garage barage bands when we did gigs for $100 or so...for the whole band !!...average that out over time spent travelling there,setting up,playing,pulling down and then going home....I reckon sometimes I would have earnt a whole $3.25 an hour....
The mindset of some folks..Publicans,Customers, is that "Well.they're doing what they love,so they dont really want that much money" ..
So.........whatever you get for your beautiful Flutes Terry,its not enough...

Terry McGee wrote:Heh heh, even:

IF (Mortgage > 0)
COPY McGee.flute McGee(n).flute
n = n+1
ELSE
GOTO Session
ENDIF

Terry

DoWhile (Mortgage > 0)
COPY McGee.flute McGee(n).flute
n = n+1
Mortgage = Mortgage - ProfitOnMcGee.flute
EndDo

GOTO Session

Terry,

I think you and all Irish flutemakers should earn as much as possible, as much as the market will allow. Perhaps you can form a cartel with all the other flutemakers and decide that prices should be X like OPEC, limit supply and availability...

Truth is Irish Trad music and Irish flutes are a fringe market with limited potential and probably the more makers, the smaller the piece of pie for everyone with limited demand. Even the band instrument makers are facing, probably, a declining market since kids can just get GarageBand and have all instruments and the ability to make tunes at their fingertips. What about the electric guitar market...?

Adam Smith pretty much had it right. The oil companies are entitled to make as much profit as they can based on supply and demand (eventually, their supply will run out, so make hay while the sun shines). Flute makers should also make as much as they can. Perhaps investing in marketing that lauds your flutes and trashes the competition, a la Oracle's samuri slash and burn style of marketing, could increase your profits, but at what cost....

Just babbling after a long day (weeks) of work...

The commercial Boehm flute market appears to be very competitive, price wise. For instance, were two similar flutes as made by competing manufacturers compared to one another, feature for feature, then as a rule it seems that if those two flutes are comparable, then they likely will have comparable prices, too. Moreover, inasmuch as that could effectively establish a competitive price point, as their perceived market value, any competitor to them apparently would need to provide a comparable flute at, or even below, that price point, or risk being overpriced. Now, at the top end of the Boehm flute market perhaps pricing could become more flexible, but perhaps the less expensive flutes could be the bread and butter of the industry.

Similarly, perhaps even in so rare a market as ITM flutes there could also exist a similar price consensus among flute makers, in effect, although perhaps there could naturally be more flexibility to ITM flute market pricing, as perhaps the total model diversity, as amongst all makers, could be great enough that fewer direct, feature for feature, comparisons could be made. Even with such flexibility, however, there likely are upper and lower limits to practical pricing, in that too low a price could not be sustainable, and that too high a price could be too exclusive. Therefore, it appears that ITM flute makers somehow need to broadly keep an eye on each other's pricing strategies, as the tide which floats all ships, so to speak, and use that information to plan their budgets, in a way apparently similar as to what the commercial Boehm flute makers do.

Just give potential clients the necessary information about your Swiss bank account, and once they've deposited enough gold bars... ;-)

jim stone wrote:I see flute making (of Irish flutes) as a largely a labor of love. .... So I think the answer to the question 'How much
should a flutemaker earn?' is the same as the answer to the same question for artists. ....

I was thinking about the comparison with artists, much the same as Jim.

When I worked as a painter, I wondered often about how to set the price of a painting. I usually decided by a combination of how many hours it took and how successful the finished work was. My works tended toward detailed realism, so they often took many hours, even months to complete. When I set a price I usually factored in how many hours I had spent because I believed it was fair to receive a very minimum hourly wage. Others probably thought my prices were too high. I got good reviews, but I didn't sell a lot.

In reality, the value of art (or even consumer goods) has very little to do with the materials or labor involved. Value is mostly determined by the purchaser's perceptions of its value. Here in the US, I don't think most people buy art, which is sad given the number of people trying to sell their art. And when anyone can buy framed mass-produced "art" for $20 at Wal-Mart, it makes it harder to charge $2000 for a painting, no matter how good it is.

Now I work creating web sites and internet marketing. There's still a lot of that artistic quality in my work, I still receive similar compliments about my work, and I still bill by the hour -- at a higher hourly rate. What's different is that more people are willing to pay me for my work now, probably because in most cases it's helping them do something that will increase their incomes.

But I think there's a significant difference between artists and flutemakers. Flutemakers are more like furniture makers or jewelers, because they make something you can use. Something about utilitarian objects makes us more willing to pay more for those that are very well-made. Maybe it's harder to justify spending a lot for a painting that's just going to hang on the wall. I suppose I could "use" it to impress my friends, but it's not as strong an argument as needing a table to serve dinner on or a flute to play at gigs.

In terms of the finances, I'd rather be a good flute maker than a good painter.

I guess my answer might be ..'you should earn as much as you think you need', which will differ from maker to maker. Standards and costs of living vary across the world so what might be sufficient in Ireland might not support you in Scandanavia.

Knowing a little of the working circumstances of well known flute makers in Ireland like Hammy H. and Martin Doyle - both more or less work from shops attached to the house as far as I know. Obviously I've no way of knowing their 'taxable income' but they don't live ostentatiously if you know what I mean. I would say they are doing better than someone on factory work but worse say than local doctor - perhaps around an average teachers income.

But of the future?? The problem with turning out good quality, well built instruments that last for decades is that there must be a limited market and sooner or later, there will be enough flutes sloshing around to satisfy everyones need.

Generally there is a relation between how long one has been doing this and how much money one earns. This is true with all instrument making of the hand made variety. As one gains more experience certain things such as carving a violin bridge, setting a bass bar or on a flute, tuning and voicing become faster and faster, with better results. It used to take me hours to voice a flute properly - now it is less than an hour.

Other steps such as standardizing a product, mass production techniques, etc. all lead to a better income. Its not unreasonable to expect a professional income from instrument making if one has been at it for a few decades or more.

I think wooden flutes, such as you folks make are underpriced. What would a purely artisan made metal flute cost... or any other wind instrument? For instance a named maker alto recorder would cost $2000... no keys etc so about the same amount of work I'd guess.

treeshark wrote:I think wooden flutes, such as you folks make are underpriced. What would a purely artisan made metal flute cost... or any other wind instrument? For instance a named maker alto recorder would cost $2000... no keys etc so about the same amount of work I'd guess.

Supply and demand treeshark. If there was a larger demand for wooden flutes the price would go up. Not to say the price hasn't been rising for a well made flute due to the economic situation most flute makers have raised their prices in recent years. Although, the demand is on the rise as well more people playing and listening to the music worldwide.

As far as Terry's question I will not even pretend to have an answer for it, but I think Casey has a good point the longer you have been doing it the more money you will make as you gain a reputation and experience, same as most occupations really.

Unseen122 wrote: Supply and demand treeshark. If there was a larger demand for wooden flutes the price would go up. Not to say the price hasn't been rising for a well made flute due to the economic situation most flute makers have raised their prices in recent years. Although, the demand is on the rise as well more people playing and listening to the music worldwide.
.

I'm not sure that's true, 6 to 10 year waiting lists mean the demand is there for top quality instruments, and the market for ITM players must be on a par with recorder players. I dunno I suspect the reason is more historical than to do with demand. There is also not as much difference in cost between the really top flight instruments and the more workaday ones as you would expect.
Terry's remark produced a moment of guilt as I have far better flutes than my prowess requires... my teacher plays a far less upmarket flute than I but sounds about 100 times better...

Although I'm sure it was not intended, the original question, "should", implies a culture of entitlement. The matter of price relativity, mentioned just above, being an example. While flutemakers deserve immense respect, I'm unwilling to put a pricetag on that.

I guess it depends on how much the flute buyer can afford to spend.
*shrug* New flute ot textbooks? New flute? Textbooks? hm...

Hi Terry, well, you have a noble profession. I like what I do myself (literature professor) but I wish I could be a flutemaker: its artistic, enriching, and at same time the work of the artist, sculptor, architect, engineer, scientist and physicist all in one (and am I forgetting anything?). It's probably - I hope - both passionate and zen. We can certainly see all of that come across in your website. So, from this point of view, you earn a lot!

I hope financially, that yourself and the other flutemakers we know and respect too around the world, make enough to continue your work in comfort.

Not too much comfort though, just enough pressure to keep you doing what we love you doing!