Middle D fingering

[LorenzoFlute]

it's always better to be able to play in both ways, so that you can choose which one to use in different situations...

[LorenzoFlute]

and anyway molloy uses both....

[daiv]

i just want to say that when aanvil (i believe) asked us to disect kevin crawford's short d crann, he cranned without it vented, and when he was finished, he vented it briefly before letting up the note!

[ImNotIrish]

Martin,

I thought of you and this discussion when I recorded this tune. Check out the second time through. I think I am venting for the first couple of 'D's', then playing with all holes covered. I think this is a great tune to work out such issues.
Arbo
http://www.box.net/shared/tm13dhbk8c

[Bothrops]

Thanks for the demonstration, Arbo!

[ImNotIrish]

Thanks for the demonstration, Arbo!

Just to let you know, most of the D's were played with the closed fingerings. I thinks the first D of the A section 2nd time around was the vented D. My feeling about it is that with the closed fingering you tend to get the overtones as well as the root note, but I'm no expert on this. I might try and redo the tune using the vented fingering throughout the A section. Anyway, it's a good tune to use to practice such an exercise.

Okay, here's another take which better illustrates the vented D.
http://www.box.net/shared/kz4cdpsys4

Arbo

[mahanpots]

There's a tune I play called The Coachman's Whip where I'd love to vent the second octave D, but can only do it at very slow speed. Anyone else play this and able to vent the D. I'm speaking in the repeated section that goes: E2CE|dECE. Too many fingers going up and down at the same time for me.

Michael

[daiv]

There's a tune I play called The Coachman's Whip where I'd love to vent the second octave D, but can only do it at very slow speed. Anyone else play this and able to vent the D. I'm speaking in the repeated section that goes: E2CE|dECE. Too many fingers going up and down at the same time for me.

Michael

i dont play the tune, but that's not a problem. in classical music, you have to vent all d's, and put Eb key down for all E naturals.

[jemtheflute]

Michael, Coachman's Whip wasn't a tune familiar to me, but I've dug out the notation from the Fiddler's Companion website and had a look at it. I don't see any problem or difficulty whatever in venting the Ds in that pedal point passage (~E2 cE dEcE) you mention. I would finger it thus (ignoring the 1st beat E rolled crotchet):

c - oxo xxo,
E - xxx xxo,
d - oxx xxx
E - xxx xxo,
c - oxo xxo,
E - xxx xxo,

which doesn't actually involve all that much finger movement at all, and no awkward alternations. If you leave the Eb key out of it it's even simpler. On pedals and arpeggios involving Cnat to E I tend to use this slightly weaker C cross fingering (oxoxxo,) if the keyed fingering (x,oo ooo,) is not suitable as the best one on my flute (oxo xxx,) is rather awkward in context.

If you use oxx ooo(,) for C nat (noticeably flat and a little wolfy on my R&R) it is a little more finger-jumpy, but not massively so, and if you use the C nat key (if you have one) for all the Cs (which I wouldn't, but tried just on principle) it is perfectly accessible with a little practice.

I have the vented D so thoroughly ingrained that it is perfectly natural and easy for me to vent it in (so far as I can tell, virtually) all contexts. I actually found it quite difficult (though it certainly involves still fewer finger changes) to leave L1 down for 2nd 8ve D in this passage, which I also tried on principle - in fact, I tended to hit a low D with it because my embouchure is so acclimatised to the vented fingering.

So, as usual, familiarity and practice have everything to do with such issues, plus some common sense about checking out what works best on your particular flute (N.B. I do not mean by that what you find easiest to finger as the player, but what produces the best sounds/the sounds you desire from the instrument, with due effort and practice).

[daiv]

- in fact, I tended to hit a low D with it because my embouchure is so acclimatised to the vented fingering.

when you play low d, and lift up the first finger, does it pop right away, or do you have to change your embouchure?

i find that it can be very difficult to line up the D harmonic series properly, as the flute really wants to stay where it is in that series. i find it very difficult to go between unvented d and a, as flutes tend to like to jump straight from d to d'.

[mahanpots]

I don't think I'll ever get the hang of venting second octave d's in the following tunes:

The New Copperplate and Coachman's Whip

I think my difficulty is at what Jem refers to as pedal points?

Michael

[Bothrops]

"The New Copperplate" is one of the few reels I play with almost all vented d's (on whistle, I haven't tried it on flute). I learnt it that way, and I find more difficult not venting them if I want to =/

Nice playing BTW.

[mahanpots]

Bothrops,

Now, that's interesting, huh? It's just hard to change the way I play after learning one way. I keep working on venting that d though. Maybe one day, I'll be able to do it both ways.

Thanks. I'd like to hear your version on flute or low d.

Michael

[Bothrops]

I was trying and with a bit of practice I can change at least those d's from the beginning..
I actually prefer the way it sounds when they are not vented...

By the way, I can't do much with this tune on the flute, but here it's an attempt played with almost every middle d vented:

http://audio.xanga.com/Bothrops/d51942321467/audio.html

Cheers,
Martin

[daiv]

i dont have any recording equipment set up, but i just tried the copperplate on the whistle. i can switch between vented and not vented, cross fingered c and thumb c--on the fly.

it used to be difficult to do, but stick with it, i guarantee you it wont take longer than 6 months to be able to switch between both d's without thinking.