Can we trust tuners?

[colomon]

The "solution" was to compromise the tuning of the scale, so that the lowest instruments could match the tuning of the highest instruments, and that is the tuning known as equal temperament. Without equal temperament, for instance, there could be no such instrument as a piano, with it's several octaves, and, similarly, there could be no such thing as an orchestra.

Equal temperament has nothing to do with changing octaves; equal temperament keeps the exact octave interval present in older tunings. The purpose of equal temperament is to allow you to change key freely on a fixed tuning chromatic instrument without retuning it.

On the other hand, pianos are not tuned in ideal equal temperament, precisely because it does not sound good across octaves on the piano. Good orchestral strings and winds do not use equal temperament at all, but are expected to make small tuning adjustments on the fly to bring the note they are playing in tune with an ideal chord. Both orchestras and pianos existed for centuries before equal temperament was invented.

[Terry McGee]

Hmmm, just looking at that program Tartini that Graeme mentioned above. Now that has some nice features - definitely worth a look, thanks Graeme.

Terry

[Dana]

Good orchestral strings and winds do not use equal temperament at all, but are expected to make small tuning adjustments on the fly to bring the note they are playing in tune with an ideal chord. Both orchestras and pianos existed for centuries before equal temperament was invented.

Quite true. We use our ears extensively to make constant pitch adjustments depending on the chord, and depending on who we're playing with.

Dana

[boyd]

1) ITM is often played with Just Tempered intonation rather than Equal Tempered

i think this is wrong, today almost every instrument is made to be played at an equally tempered scale.
its a bit more difficult to use the tuner for the flute, the pointer oscillates a lot, but i don't think that it can be wrong...

Make a set of uilleann pipes tuned to Equal Temperament and you will find that they are out of tune with the drones (and will never ever be in tune with the drones).

Uilleann pipes are tuned to Just Tempered so that they harmonise with the drones. There is a lot of info out there explaining why this is so.
The uilleann pipes are often the reference point for other instruments...a bit like the way that orchestra's tune to the oboe.
So a good flute or whistle will be Just Tempered.
Thats the convention.
AND..it sounds better!


see the "Getting In Tune" section of this link, for an easily understood explanation:

http://www.uilleannobsession.com/extras_geoffwooff.html


Boyd

[Gordon]

As a somewhat flawed analogy, try singing in perfect tune to an electronic tuner. If you've ever worked in a recording studio, take a vocal track that sounds great and remove the instrumentation - the voice is often noticeably off pitch - not greatly, but noticeably. The singer, in this case, is tuning his/herself to the instruments and not to themselves. In reverse, good acappella singing is almost impossible to lay instruments behind, after the fact (unless it's an acappella harmony, where voices lock in a chord). Exceptions to this abound, just as they do for flute solos, but it underlines the obvious difficulties of trying to electronically fine tune a non-fretted, embouchure-driven instrument. The true test of tuning is whether you play in tune with another instrument when you play - adjusting your embouchure properly to match the other player (assuming they're in tune). Our embouchure's allow us to adjust, whether to equal or just temperment. If you're not in tune with yourself, (and by this I mean to the human ear, not a tuner), then you've got a different problem, and a tuner is only going to point out the obvious, that you are off pitch, note to note. Keep in mind that different flute types, Pratten, Rudalls, modern hybrids, hone their tuning with differing sensibilities - ultimately, it's really up to the player to fine tune the differences.

[Ro3b]

Uilleann pipes are tuned to Just Tempered so that they harmonise with the drones. There is a lot of info out there explaining why this is so.

Which is why it's important for a flute player, as the one with the more flexible instrument, to develop his or her ear to the point where s/he can play in tune with both just and equally-tempered instruments. Actually I think for practical purposes it's better to forget about just vs. ET and concentrate on playing in tune with the people you play with.

[Denny]

Actually I think for practical purposes it's better to forget about just vs. ET and concentrate on playing in tune with the people you play with.

do ya now

[monkey587]

in general, concertinas and accordions are tuned to equal temperament. i have only seen one concertina (out of the 20 or 30 i have played) that was tuned in a just temperament, and there was definitely a difference in the sweetness of the chords. most of the time, anglo players do not construct their chords using the third, which then alleviates any slight dissonance (which is also apparent on piano chords).

I'll have to take your word for it... It hasn't been the case with the box and concertina players with whom I've discussed it.

Anyway, I think Akiba is on the right track. I would recommend practicing with a drone to get your basic intonation and keep in mind that you can choose to deviate from that. If your goal is to play equal temperament all the time, then you will be missing out on some of the most beautiful subtleties of irish music, in my opinion.

[monkey587]

Listening critically and honestly to a recording of yourself is a very good way to improve anything. If you are to use a tuner as an aid, use it to find the desired pitch, learn the sound of that pitch, and aim for the sound rather than for the tuner's needle position. Don't fall into the trap of relying on visual cues about an aural issue.

[groxburgh]

Listening critically and honestly to a recording of yourself is a very good way to improve anything. If you are to use a tuner as an aid, use it to find the desired pitch, learn the sound of that pitch, and aim for the sound rather than for the tuner's needle position. Don't fall into the trap of relying on visual cues about an aural issue.

Looking at a recording of what you've played or what someone else has played, with software like "Tartini" http://miracle.otago.ac.nz/postgrads/tartini/ critically and honestly is also educational.

Cheers
Graeme

[monkey587]

Looking at a recording of what you've played or what someone else has played, with software like "Tartini" http://miracle.otago.ac.nz/postgrads/tartini/ critically and honestly is also educational.

Cheers
Graeme

I'm not saying you can't learn anything by doing that... But I think if you're going to sit there playing in front of a tuner trying to get the needle in the right place then you are missing the point. You need to train your ears, not your eyes.

[peeplj]

Regarding the "why" of equal temper, here is a previous thread that covered quite a bit of ground on the subject.

--James

[Cork]

:P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a0_9baKQzU :P

Whoa!

Since your recent post on this thread there seem to be those who could not perceive the difference between equal temperament and just intonation.

Moreover, it seems that it is on me to explain the difference.

OK, I'm up for that, for it simply is worth a musician's knowing.

Ready, set, go...

[Denny]

Since your recent post on this thread there seem to be those who could not perceive the difference between equal temperament and just intonation.

good thing they play flute then, innit....
wouldn't do well as a piano tuner

[Cork]

OK, there seem to be some here who could be unaware of two, very different forms of tuning, namely, of equal temperament and of just intonation.

A show of hands, please, as just who could be unaware of such a difference?

BTW, I didn't invent this, as this has been a matter of music for more than the past few centuries.

So, c'mon, let's get into it!