Fingers ache...

bud · Post by **bud** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:17 am

I'm a jargonizer, Jem! I much appreciate the correction, since use of incorrect terminology by the ignorant (me) is likely to confuse the knowledgeable (everyone else).

Hoovorff · Post by **Hoovorff** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:12 am

I've found that some flutes work better for some than for others. Every time I tried to play my first Irish flute, a Dixon 3-piece Delrin, my left hand cramped. I have not had that cramping trouble with any other flute. There was just something about that flute and my hands that did not work.

Soooo, if you continue to have pain, I would try another flute. You don't want to do yourself any lasting damage.

Just my view,

Jeanie

Hoovorff · Post by **Hoovorff** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:13 am

Whoops. Double post

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:01 am

bud wrote: Diane, I'm playing a Tipple also. I read somewhere that flutes with straight barrels, such as the Tipple, have larger and more widely spaced fingering holes than flutes with tapered barrels. Which may mean that if I can conquer the noting on a Tipple, I can probably play anything.

I am finding this to be true. I even played a Hammy Pratten (very briefly) and found the finger stretch and size of the holes to be a non-issue after playing the Tipple. I think the Tipple has to be one of the biggest in this regard. I know that now that I've been able to play the Tipple I can play anything. My hand span (tip of pinky to tip of thumb, outstretched) is 7.5 inches.

Here's approximately how I have to hold it. Approximately because I'm not actually playing it, and I'm bending over a big so I'll get in the camera, but it's pretty close:

cadancer · Post by **cadancer** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:19 pm

My suggestion: Use a mirror.

No, not a hand held one !

Stand in front of a "big-ol" mirror when you play. In that way you can see your posture, finger tension, etc. If your hands and fingers look relaxed, then you are probably okay and the discomfort will go away.

I hold the flute (unkeyed) very similarly to the way sbfluter does. One exception is that I generally don't put my pinky on the flute. I generally have at least *one* of the three right hand fingers on the flute covering their respective holes at any one time. In most cases the sound quality will not be affected very much, if at all... YMMV.

Best Wishes,

John

bud · Post by **bud** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:49 pm

sbfluter wrote:
bud wrote: Diane, I'm playing a Tipple also. I read somewhere that flutes with straight barrels, such as the Tipple, have larger and more widely spaced fingering holes than flutes with tapered barrels. Which may mean that if I can conquer the noting on a Tipple, I can probably play anything.
I am finding this to be true. I even played a Hammy Pratten (very briefly) and found the finger stretch and size of the holes to be a non-issue after playing the Tipple. I think the Tipple has to be one of the biggest in this regard. I know that now that I've been able to play the Tipple I can play anything. My hand span (tip of pinky to tip of thumb, outstretched) is 7.5 inches.

Here's approximately how I have to hold it. Approximately because I'm not actually playing it, and I'm bending over a big so I'll get in the camera, but it's pretty close:

This is further proof that hands are very individual. I notice that your left index and middle fingers are bent to come down on the hole. I can't do that. Both of my hands are like your right one and stop the holes with the flat of the first or second joint.

About your costume: Are you in the Society for Creative Anachronism?

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:17 pm

bud wrote:
About your costume: Are you in the Society for Creative Anachronism?

Well... with the combo of that top and the cargo pants that would qualify as "Creative Anachronism".

I'm currently sporting a space helmet and a kilt myself.

(sb... you look just fine btw.

)

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:11 pm

I got that shirt at Nordstroms. I got the pants from the thrift shop. Can't decide if I'm poor or rich I guess.

I wonder if I could play my Tipple with the left hand fingers flat. It may be that I keep my fingers curved to provide a platform for the flute to rest on my left index finger. Otherwise, what would it sit on? My thumb? That would feel weird.

By the way, I use my right pinky to provide a reference point to keep my hand in the right place. As long as my pinky touches a certain way then my fingers should be positioned and angled correctly to cover the holes. The picture isn't quite right though, because I tried to play right after I took it and I still had to point my right hand a little more diagonally to cover the holes.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:34 am

Nice shirt! Tie die and lace cuffs!!!!!!

Ouch, Diane - that fat ol' tube really looks uncomfortable for you! I think your general posture is a fairly optimal approach to it for you, though. I know you weren't quite in playing position, but the reflexed collapse of your R3 finger is a bit worrying - it suggests you are pressing very hard with it. If you do that whilst playing, you won't be able to move properly - too tense, too much pressure, holding the flute with it when you shouldn't need to. Not everyone's fingers can do that, of course: mine do - it is a problem for me with R4 on Eb keys, but I don't do it otherwise with any of my other fingers because they are not (and should not be) under any significant pressure when playing the flute. If I hold a flute up in mid air with just my R hand, my R3 collapses just like that as it presses to counter-lever the weight, but it doesn't do it when I support the flute properly to play.

I know it may not be a representative picture of your playing posture - can you get one done on your other flute in actual action? I suspect after seeing this pic and listening to your recent clips that your difficulties with ornaments may well be due to general excessive pressure - gripping the flute with all in-contact fingers! If that is what you do, you simply can't do the kind of very swift, controlled but relaxed movements required for effective cuts and taps.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:39 am

Aanvil wrote:I'm currently sporting a space helmet and a kilt myself.

You would! I don't want to know where you're sporting the helmet, though!

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:34 am

My hand is much more relaxed than appears. Basically my fingers drape around the flute. If anything it's my left hand that's all strained and can't do hardly anything including ornaments.

At the risk of more comments about my costume, as well as my housekeeping, here's a picture with a nice big bird to distract you.

Since playing this way, I now even hold my small-handed Folk Flute the same way:

I probably do hold any kind of flute too tightly to be able to play fast with lots of ornaments like you guys do. I probably don't blow into it right either. But, I can play a flute with that huge bird sitting on my fingers.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:42 am

sbfluter wrote:At the risk of more comments about my costume, as well as my housekeeping, here's a picture with a nice big bird to distract you.

ya...fooled again
I've been attempting to not accuse you of over accessorizing.
That leaves me as a foolish failure, eh

sbfluter wrote:My hand is much more relaxed than appears. Basically my fingers drape around the flute. If anything it's my left hand that's all strained and can't do hardly anything including ornaments.

not that I can tell from the camera angle...
but you might want to lower the flute just a bit in the right index joint.

sbfluter wrote:I can play a flute with that huge bird sitting on my fingers.

I think the real question is which flute goes better with the bird.
Is the color between the bird and the Tipple that far off or is it just the camera?

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:48 am

I believe there is some incandescent light shading the bird a slightly orangish color. She is pure white with a bit of yellowish tinge inside the wings and tail. The flute has picked up the camera flash.

How would I lower the flute? It has to meet my face. I suppose I could raise my arm a bit, but it's too flabby to hold like that for long.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:53 am

the first joint of you index finger
if you are using the first joint as the pivot point for the flute
if the flute is to high on the joint (higher as in closer to the finger...away from the palm)
this will cause moving the finger to affect your grip & allow the flute some movement

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:57 am

Diane, it was your L hand that worried me more, though perhaps I wasn't clear about that. I can see in these pics that you don't collapse R3 when playing. Have you posted them inverted, BTW - in the "green top" one you were normal way round, in these you're a lefty - or have you shot yourself in a mirror? If so, perhaps you should L-R invert them in your picture editor before posting so as not to confuse us all even worse!

I agree about trying moving your L hand up/the flute down a bit - in terms of where it is on your forefinger, that is. The base of the finger does not need to be under the flute at all, just pressing it towards you from the outer side. If you can crack that, it will free your hand up - and more so than Rob's method on his current thread - I know you've tried it! In the "bird" pics we can see that your L3 is coming from way below the tube, even on the thinner bodied wooden flute - that is because your whole hand is too far under the flute. Your R hand seems to be pretty OK.

Just don't let the bird perch on the bottom end of the flute!

Incidentally, you might find it helpful in loosening up your hands to do ornaments if you practice a bit on whistle where it is easier to watch your finger action as well as a wholly different support situation.

Cross posting... yes, not up or down in relation to your body/face/the ground, just along the side of the base of your forefinger. Try rotating your hand slightly out-and-up around the flute tube. I've got to go out now, but I'll try and find an old post and link it later about establishing flute holds from first steps - suggest you look back at that stuff... I think it might have been addressed to you some months back!