What's the Loudest: The Sequel

[jim stone]

Thanks, Chas, for the report. One day I would really like to play a Hammy.
Sounds quite interesting.

One thought about playing alone--for me that often involves
playing with CDs and tapes of sessions, etc. So a tuning
slide can come in handy even when you're playing 'by yourself.'

[Loren]

Jim, I spent an hour with my flute teacher with my Hammy and his lined Olwell Pratten. Unlike me, he can play them I didn't find a difference in volume between them (as player or listener)

You're wasting your time Charlie, this is not the answer that Jim is looking for. Come back when you are prepared to state that the Hammy is louder. (Insert Eye Roll emoticon here)



Loren

[jim stone]

I hoped for a report from someone who has both
the Hammy and the Olwell Pratten. Did receive one privately.
FWIW, the report is that the Hammy is slightly
louder.

You also received at least one report of same publicly from me Jim, but apparently you blocked it out, or rationalized it away because it was not what you were hoping to hear. Over the years, I have noticed that you have a habit of doing this Jim - you've made up your mind about something, and then you keep asking the question about it, until you get the answer you want to hear. Is it a surprise that you get so few responses any more?

Having played and compared examples of both flutes, on at least 3-4 different occasions, I went ahead and answered your question Jim, I just didn't do it the way you would have liked, nor did I give you the answer you wanted to hear. Now, if you want to act like I didn't even bother to answer your question, fine. But do us both a favor, don't ask me these questions privately any more (as you often do) and I won't offer public answers either, this way we can both stop wasting eachother's time.


Loren

Sorry if I missed your report. Things got pretty busy here yesterday.
I didn't block out what you said or rationalize it, anymore than
I did it to Chas. Just missed it, apparently.
What I recall you saying is that the differences
tween these flutes is marginal at best. I accepted that, still do.
If you look over my posts I've been agreeing substantially
with a good deal of what you say, for instance, I took your
good point that I've reached the point of diminishing returns
about volume concerning hardware, and that the best way to
get more is either to improve my technique or amplify.
The report that the Hammy is slightly louder, if it's accurate
(note I added FWIW, as a single report isn't going to settle
the matter)
confirms your opinion--because the difference is slight.
If Chas is right and there isn't even that much difference,
you're right.

At the end of the day I'm probably not going to agree with
you about everything, but I sure hope you won't get
personal or suggest I've got Alzheimers (green tea and
fish, I place my hopes in these). It's just
a conversation about flutes.

You know, it's a sad fact--there are things that seem self-evident
to me and other people often don't see it that way. I can try to
persuade them but I can't control them and I'll just drive
myself crazy if I try.

Thanks again, Jim

[Jayhawk]

Since I didn't chime in on the first "loudness" thread, and haven't put in my two cents yet...I just came back from our local session, and a new flute player has recently moved to town from Houston. You'd be amazed at the volume and rich, fat sound coming from his smaller holed antique ebonite flute. Since he'd not played an M&E, he played a bit on mine just for a minute or two, and darned if it didn't sound remarkably similar to his flute....just as loud and rich sounding. His quote in that typical Irish reseved style was simply "there ain't nothing wrong with that".

Man, do I need to go practice.

Eric

[AaronMalcomb]

I just came back from our local session, and a new flute player has recently moved to town from Houston. You'd be amazed at the volume and rich, fat sound coming from his smaller holed antique ebonite flute.

Turlach Boylan?

[jim stone]

Another report: according to this one the
Hammy is easier to 'honk' on than is the Olwell Pratten
and it's louder too.

[Jayhawk]

Yep...a bit intimidating to see him sitting there across from you at first, but he seemed like a nice fellow.

Eric

[jim stone]

I played at Ralph Sweet's an ebonite keyed F flute,
the ebonite an unholy shade of green. It sounded
wonderful and I asked if I could buy it but
it isn't for sale.

[GaryKelly]

I thought we'd already established the relationship between acoustic power ("loudness"), generating efficiency and jet velocity in http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... efficiency

Page 9 of the PDF in that thread is worthy of note in any discussion of a flute's perceived loudness ("Sound Power Production").

I'm no physicist. But others here are, and maybe they can confirm that what the physics in that pdf means is that:

Acoustic power ("loudness") is a function of generating efficiency (which is entirely concerned with jet velocity - ie embouchure and breath support as Loren has said in so many ways so many times - and losses in the flute) and radiation losses (ie the amount of energy not radiated - or transmitted - as sound).

Efficiency is higher at higher frequencies, which is why fifes and high-pitched flutes are "louder" than lower-pitched flutes, and why high notes sound louder than low notes unless the player takes the trouble to modify jet velocity (ie embouchure and breath support) to keep volume balanced while progressing up the scale.

The difference in losses between well-made flutes has a negligible effect on 'loudness' (fractions of a per cent... a lossless flute - which cannot exist outside of theory - would only have a generating efficiency of around 4%, whereas a real-life flute has an efficiency of around 2.4%).

This means that a McChud with a bore rough as old boots might indeed be 'quieter' than a well-made flute with a smooth bore (by points of a per cent), and of course embouchure cut directly affects efficiency. But between quality flutes even from different makers the variations in losses will be so small one can ignore them (from a radiated acoustic power perspective). Which is what Loren and others have said often.

Given the fact that radiation losses are less at higher frequencies, then higher harmonics are less attenuated than lower ones. But generating harmonics is about tone, and tone is about embouchure and breath support, as Loren and others have oft repeated.

Note also that a pair of human ears in their 7th decade of life suffer considerable high-frequency hearing loss and are unlikely to hear the higher harmonics in a flute's tone. But kids and youths under 30 certainly will. Any flute is therefore likely to sound a lot louder to them than it will to over-30s. Provided of course that the player is capable of producing a tone containing those higher harmonics, which as Loren and others have said is about embouchure and breath support.

Everything else is in the ear (and mind) of the beholder, methinks, and both are neither mutually-exclusive nor entirely dependable.

[cocusflute]

I think the telling point here is that the original poster didn't ask, "How can I get more volume from my flute?" - but rather, "Which flute is loudest?"
The old adage is appropriate: It ain't the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
But what the hell. As Loren pointed out, he's not paying attention anyway.

[jim stone]

Thanks, Gary. These theories are interesting but, like everything else
in this business, they aren't necessarily dependable.
Some very controversial theories about flutes out there, in fact.
If one wishes to be so guided, fine. Personally I don't consider them
decisive. The report comes from an experienced and well-respected board member whose opinions have generally
checked out in the past. It also says the Hammy has a more focused tone, which may go to the question of
how the flute projects (your point about efficiency). For those with an empiricist bent, the report (buttressed by the first) provides SOME (not
decisive) support for the weak conclusion that
the Hammy is SOMEWHAT louder in SOME modality of loudness that
MIGHT make for greater audibility in the hands of a fair amateur.
Inconclusive support for a weak conclusion. I can assert with
confidence, however, that the Olwell is a wonderful instrument
with excellent volume. Hopefully I will have the opportunity one day to get really subjective with a Hammy.

We're off to California, literally, to a conference--thanks to all.

[crookedtune]

We're off to California, literally, to a conference--thanks to all.

Sounds like a wrap!

[GaryKelly]

Thanks, Gary. These theories are interesting but, like everything else
in this business, they aren't necessarily dependable.
Some very controversial theories about flutes out there, in fact.
If one wishes to be so guided, fine. Personally I don't consider them
decisive.

The physics presented in the paper are backed up by experiment which anyone with suitable expertise and equipment may reproduce. The paper was published in Journal of the Acoustical Society of America and was of course subject to thorough peer review prior to publication.

Yes, I'd say it's interesting, and I'd also say it's a lot more dependable than some bloke (respected or otherwise) the quality of whose hearing (on which his 'report' relies) is not likewise available for peer review or any other form of objective scrutiny.

If one wishes to be so guided by someone else's lug'oles and subjective opinion, fine. Personally I don't consider any individual subjective 'review' as decisive. There are, after all, people who think rap represents the zenith of western musical development. I'm not one of them.

The report ... says the Hammy has a more focused tone, which may go to the question of
how the flute projects (your point about efficiency).

A Hamilton flute has no tone at all, focused, out of focus, or otherwise.

Mine, which is a typical example, sits silent in its case until such time as I play it. At which point, the tone I am able to produce with the instrument is a deep rich dark chocolatey brown buttery raspy reedy honking eggs and bacon howitzer hoot so rich in harmonics you'd need a broadband spectrum analyser to see 'em. For about 5 seconds. Then I adjust the headjoint, settle down to practice, switch the minidisk to record, and it all turns to ratpoop.

It's no louder than my Grinter. But then that's just my subjective opinion based on my lug'oles (and the recording level indicators), and I don't think I fit into the 'experienced and well-respected board member' category. Consequently, I don't anticipate my Hammy Vs Grinter experiments to be decisive at all, and would need someone like the members of the Acoustical Society of America to back me up with some hard physics if ever I were to get into an argument on such matters.

[Doug_Tipple]

I have decided to enter my definitive comments into this discussion to end it once and for all. Here goes: Some flute players seem to play kind of louder than others, whereas some flutes seem to sound kind of softer than some others. Some flute players, just like violinists, have a significant hearing loss, therefore, their opinion isn't worth much when it comes to discerning loudness. Some flute players, like Gary and I, sound like ratpoop. I hope this is helpful. What did you say?

[dow]

I have decided to enter my definitive comments into this discussion to end it once and for all. Here goes: Some flute players seem to play kind of louder than others, whereas some flutes seem to sound kind of softer than some others. Some flute players, just like violinists, have a significant hearing loss, therefore, their opinion isn't worth much when it comes to discerning loudness. Some flute players, like Gary and I, sound like ratpoop. I hope this is helpful. What did you say?

WOW! Such clarity of vagueness!! I'm feeling positively indecisive.

Or not.

Maybe.

Sort of.

I think.

Sometimes.