reedy: is it the player or the flute?

[Cathy Wilde]

I think it's ultimately the player. BUT, I think embouchure cut and chimney depth make a contribution. I'm also starting to think wood density and thickness, as well as bore finish, may come into play as well.

All that said, I get a far reedier sound (at least what I view as "reedy", which is pretty much what rama describes) out of my Murray flute.

(Which I view as a smaller-bore, almost "thinwall" flute, the "live-ness" of which gives it that humming reedy tone.)

If I play my other flutes (2 Prattens & a hybrid; varying bore sizes and embouchure shapes) the same way, I would describe the resulting sound as more "dark" or "edgy" than "reedy."

???????

[fluti31415]

There's a lot of talk and research done on how the material of an instrument relates (or doesn't relate) to sound.

I am sure that many people on this list have heard of the concrete flute. I am not so certain that material in itself makes a difference. But I *definitely* agree that the bore surface makes a huge difference, and it makes sense to me that bore surface is related to the material used. I also have some fist hand experience with this as an oboist.

I was lucky to be chosen as a performing student at a master class held by the retired Philadelphia and Curtis School oboist John DeLancie. During the course of the master class, we had a demonstration about how just changing the bell of the oboe affected sound. It was quite remarkable, but the most interesting thing that happened was at the end of the demo. The demonstrator played two oboes behind a screen. One sounded good, but the other one sounded great. Everyone in the room heard the difference and remarked on how much more vibrant the sound was on the second instrument.

Surprise, surprise! The two "different" oboes were the same instrument. The player had played the instrument perfectly dry inside (the first sample), and then had taken a turkey feather, dipped it in a glass of plain water (no Guinness available -- these were oboes, so the most appropriate tonic would probably have been champagne), and swabbed it around the inside of the instrument.

I have not until this very moment thought about trying this on a wood flute, but now I am itching to leave work and see how it works.

Technical stuff about concrete flutes:
Here is a link to a senior thesis by a physics student that has some good information about material and sound.
http://www.phy.duke.edu/ugrad/thesis/hu ... thesis.doc

Here's a link to The John Coltman archives (Coltman is the guy who cast that concrete beast in the first place). I haven't looked here much, but what I have seen looks kind of interesting. There are some full text articles on flute acoustics, in particular.
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/

[MarcusR]

As Cathy and some of the previous poster already have pointed out, I too believe that much of the sound characteristics is up to player skills.
And everything you hear has to be created by the interactions of the reed (your lips) and the embouchure, no new tones or harmonics are created along the bore. Density can't be a factor as the minor differences of different wall material can be ignored compared to the density of the vibrating air column. (Both Paul Thomas and Nelson have made some very informative and interesting comments on this subject in previous posts. Edit: also, see post above).
The thickness, if not too thin, should not have any impact as the wall isn't vibrating. But I think you are right about bore size and bore smoothness Cathy as it will affect damping (viscous drag) and propagation of harmonics, though I'm not sure how and to what extent yet. There are also more complicated factors such as moisture build up effects, condensation and adhesiveness, I don’t know much about these so I leave them for someone else (Edit: described by fluti31415) .

One thing that I have been thinking about is the bore volume above the embouchure as this air will serve as a backing material (air cushion) for the generated vibrations.

I don’t think that there ever will be a consensus on this subject for the same reason that we can't find a flute that we all think is "reedy".
I'm sure your Murray has a reedy sound when you play it, but I would describe the Murray I played as rich but more "hovering" than "reedy"
Our perception of "reedy" may differ but I think the differences in embouchure and tone intonation is a major factor.

/MarcusR

[Cathy Wilde]

<snip for space>
I don’t think that there ever will be a consensus on this subject for the same reason that we can't find a flute that we all think is "reedy".
I'm sure your Murray has a reedy sound when you play it, but I would describe the Murray I played as rich but more "hovering" than "reedy"
Our perception of "reedy" may differ but I think the differences in embouchure and tone intonation is a major factor.

/MarcusR

"Hovering" -- now that's a fascinating term; near-poetic! Marcus, would you mind a little more elucidation? (no, I'm not kidding, I'm intrigued)

I don't know why I can't let go of the density notion ... maybe it's all those thinwall Boehms I grew up lusting after? The ideer there was that the thinner wall wouldn't dampen the vibrations created along the air column, so it would result in a brighter, more brilliant sound than one would achieve with a thicker-walled flute.

But again, I'm only operating on feel, here.

Also, anent dampness/condensation .... I think I recall a great discussion of this in a thread before, but I sure believe there's a difference in the sound and feel of a flute played in dry conditions vs. one on rainy/high humidity days, or after it's been played a good while ... until, of course, errant condensation gets under a key or in a fingerhole and bungs everything up -- right at your solo turn, of course.

[chas]

The thickness, if not too thin, should not have any impact as the wall isn't vibrating.

There are two ways in which I think wall thickness would affect the sound. First, of course, is chimney depth -- I think we can probably all agree on that. The second is the depth of the tone holes. I think the volume of dead (i. e., damping) air in them, especially in a huge holed flute like a Hammy, could affect the sound. Also, it affects the intonation to an extent, as the amount of undercutting needed will go up with the wall thickness.

I know these aren't the sorts of effects you were talking about, but the first is certainly important, and the second may at least be noticeable.

Regarding dampness, I've noticed a couple of effects. Boxwood really seems to gain something after it's been played for half an hour or so. I don't know if makers factor this into their designs (I suspect not, as they probably use the same reamers, etc., as they do for blackwood), but to me a boxwood flute always sounds a little better after it's absorbed a little moisture and swelled. The other is that I usually have to swab out lined or Delrin heads after 15 minutes or so. There's a kind of a muddy sound to my ears in a head that's got a lot of condensation built up.

[MarcusR]

"Hovering" -- now that's a fascinating term; near-poetic! Marcus, would you mind a little more elucidation? (no, I'm not kidding, I'm intrigued)

I have tried my best Cathy,
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=29646

/MarcusR

[ChrisA]

I usually take my Seery with me when I go up to Vermont, and a friend who lives down the hill and across the brook from camp commented that she could here me playing from her house.

"That... flute is it? It sounds more like a clarinet... really carries."

I think that pretty much defines 'reedy', when the uninformed bystander thinks it sounds like a clarinet. If you want to know if your tone is reedy, find out what instrument your neighbors think you play.

I think any flute can be made to sound reedy with the right embouchure.

Depending on the flute, mostly on the embouchure hole, I think, this might be easier or harder.

I want to point out that wall thickness -does- affect sound, not because of sympathetic vibration, but because different chimney depths cause different kinds and amounts of turbulence in the body. Obviously, thickness of the head affects the shape of the embouchure hole.