Seery flute and sharp-edged holes (Update)

[kkrell]

My understanding is that Delrin is *more* expensive than blackwood.

Actually it is about a third of the cost of blackwood, (unless you buy blackwood by the ton).

Jon, have you priced this for delivery in Ireland (+ VAT) of such small quantities of Delrin stock as would be used by a small flute maker? I know that Desi was having difficulty because the agents only wished to deal in large quantities. So I believe it was (and possibly still is) costing him more than any blackwood source he might have.

Oh, still interested in seeing some of your flutes, now that I'm well on the mend. CT scan tomorrow should show how well this baby's functioning.

Kevin Krell

[Jon C.]

Hi Kevin,
I never thought of the delrin prices in Irland... Living in LA you just order any quanity you want from McMaster carr and it will be at your door in the afternoon! I guess there isn't any delrin plants in County Cork,
(Thank God!)
It is actually kind of hard to find in LA, except McMaster carr... It is also considered hazardous materials so they charge more for shipping, probably because it will burst into flames at the least provocation!

I hope you are feeling better after the hospital experence. Yes, we will have to get together, when you are feeling better.
Jon

[Loren]

Thanks for the replies.


However, my understanding is that delrin flutes are cheper because of the delrin not the workmanship.

As an instrument maker it's my opinion, that the major difference in price is NOT due to the material used (Blackwood, Delrin, whatever) but in the workmanship (time spent on the details......or not.)

Loren

[Loren]

However, my understanding is that delrin flutes are cheper because of the delrin not the workmanship.

My understanding is that Delrin is *more* expensive than blackwood. However, there are advantages in that the Delrin can be worked immediately, without need for wood to stabilize during the machining process. Additionally, there will be some wood losses, perhaps, due to cracks or wood defects discovered during the process, which set the flutemaker back in terms of lost time and material.

Kevin Krell

This is true, to some extent, but losses with good quality Grenadilla are small, especially when compared with some of the other popular flute woods, particularly English Boxwood: During a recent run we did making centers for alto recorders I started with over 100 pieces being rough turned, by the time I finish turned, reamed, re-reamed, cut tenons and basically got to the finally sorting before finish sanding (which would leave tone holes and cork slots still to be done) more than one third of the pieces were rejected as unsaveable. another 30 or so had to be plugged, which left less than 30 pieces of the original 20 that were "perfect". In the same sort of run with Grenadilla, we'd typically lose maybe 10-15% and would do very little plugging.

Loren

[Loren]

Terry Wrote:


"Delrin can make a flute cheaper to make, mostly because there's none of the time-consuming work of obtaining supplies of good wood, turning it round, seasoning over many years, etc."

Agreed, these factors obviously make a difference, however......

"But the Delrin makers do cut a few corners, or more precisely don't cut a few corners, probably to keep their products competitive in price."

.......most of the delrin flutes I've seen owe more to this set of items, which is fair enough, since there is a particular niche to fill, which works out nicely for both the players and makers of said instruments. However, at the end of the day, how much less are you selling a Delrin flute than a Grenadilla flute, Terry

"You will certainly do no harm, indeed considerable good by removing the sharp arrises around the finger holes, so go for it."

and then

"so the way to remove the arrises is with a very pointy, very sharp knife.

You have far more faith in Rookie mods than I do!!!

Loren

[Terry McGee]

This is true, to some extent, but losses with good quality Grenadilla are small, especially when compared with some of the other popular flute woods, particularly English Boxwood: During a recent run we did making centers for alto recorders I started with over 100 pieces being rough turned, by the time I finish turned, reamed, re-reamed, cut tenons and basically got to the finally sorting before finish sanding (which would leave tone holes and cork slots still to be done) more than one third of the pieces were rejected as unsaveable. another 30 or so had to be plugged, which left less than 30 pieces of the original 20 that were "perfect". In the same sort of run with Grenadilla, we'd typically lose maybe 10-15% and would do very little plugging.[Loren

It's reassuring to know that this was always the case. Looking through the boxwood flutes at the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney a few years back I was struck by how many of them had very serious timber flaws - many so bad that I would never have considered using them. I guess they might have been sold cheaply as "seconds". So it was no easier in the 19th century - Europe wasn't covered in giant boxwood forests! Boxwood is a stunted little tree and hardly gets big enough to make a keyed flute out of. You can be lucky - I have a few chunks big enough for keyed Bb flutes - but you have to put up with some grumbling from the supplier when you ask for such things.

However, at the end of the day, how much less are you selling a Delrin flute than a Grenadilla flute, Terry

Heh heh, both the same price, at this time. I may decide to pull down the Delrin price after I've made a few more - there are certainly savings to be made in time not having to prepare wood. But it's horrible stuff to work, so I'd need to be convinced I'm not saving on the merry-go-round but losing on the swings.

I'm certainly not competitive with the Delrin makers, but I'm not aiming to be - I'm aiming to make the best flute I can for a specific customer no matter what it takes, rather than making lots of flutes to a price to satisfy a big market. It's lovely now that we can have this diversity in the marketplace!

Terry

[frchristo]

UPDATE:

The deed is done and it ended splendidly. I now have nicely finished holes on my Seery. In the end, I ordered some files and rifflers from eBay and slowly filed the edges and finished them with steel wool and 600 grit wetable sand paper. I also riffled and lightly filed the inner edges.

I'm particlulary surprised at how it seems to have made the flute more responsive. Cuts on A and B are noticably more crisp.

I'm very grateful to all who offered help, especially Terry, Doug and Jon. Although, I didn't use a sharp blade, Terry's advice helped me understand the angle I was shooting for.

Thanks, again!


Christopher

[andrewK]

Terry said
Boxwood is a stunted little tree and hardly gets big enough to make a keyed flute out of.
I have had a few trees 6 to 8 inches in diameter. They havn't been uncommon.They do go blue very quickly ,though, if you don't dry them quickly.
My mate had a great load of it just before his workshop fire !

I have this morning shown an unused Prowse flute to a visitor who commented on how sharp the holes are.
She tried many others without noticing.
Perhaps they were all sent out sharp.

[Terry McGee]

Terry said
Boxwood is a stunted little tree and hardly gets big enough to make a keyed flute out of.
I have had a few trees 6 to 8 inches in diameter. They havn't been uncommon.They do go blue very quickly ,though, if you don't dry them quickly.
My mate had a great load of it just before his workshop fire !

Yes, 6 to 8 inches sounds good until you remember that they have to be split to survive seasoning. And the very centre is always flawed so it can't be used. And the remaining 3 to 4 also includes the bark and irregularities on the surface. And then they convert the ragged half rounds into two or more squares, and you turn them round and drill a small hole up the middle and then the stuff goes oval and bends along its length (thank God it was a small hole!) and so you later follow up with a bigger hole and turn the outside round again and then you are ready to start making!

Conversion from the half-round into squares and then back into round is pretty silly, but importing logs into Australia gets you into hot water with quarantine. If there is any bark or sapwood (which is where bugs and their eggs might be hiding), it has to be treated with poisonous gas, held for 24 hours at high temperatures or bombarded with gamma rays. Not an easy choice!

Terry

[andrewK]

I just shoved mine in the garage.
One tree came from a neighbour over the road.
After moving the odd tree the sensation in the muscles is of a few flutesworth !