Pulsing & Glottal Triplets: a 6-flute comparison

rama · Post by **rama** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:33 pm

Well Well Well...

The Boehm

wins hands down
and the Hamilton

is a horrible last place

Here's my rating:

1. Boehm
2. M&M split
3. M&M R&R fraud
4. Antique
5. Seery
6. Hamilton

This is my objective observation of the ever valuable Glottal stops casestudy as presented by James.

Either James can execute glottal stops better on the Boehm or the Boehm is better suited for glottal stops. Either James can't execute glottal stops very well on the Hamilton or the Hamilton can't handle glottal stops very well. Hmmm...

BTW, for fun you might try ending the tune on an A as an alternative to E.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:55 pm

So, James, another question arises.

You mention that you feel the most comfortable on the Hammy. However, every (or nearly) listener who's posted (myself included) thinks you sound the best on the Böhm.

What makes you feel like you're most comfortable on the Hammy?

Stuart

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:21 pm

sturob wrote:Wait, Gordon missed the point of another flute comparison?

Stop the presses!

Heh.

At least he didn't turn this into an indictment of Canadian health care, which I did over on the UP board in responding to a simple post about Andreas Rogge's pipes. Me and my lack of a filter.

Stuart

Wait! Canadians HAVE health care?!!

No, I never missed the point; just don't agree it works for any purpose, disclaimer notwithstanding. James' efforts, though, are always appreciated, if not for the sound samples, then for these personal exchanges with our Canadian friends (I know; you're really from Texas, Stuart. One of these days, you'll visit us in the US, which lies between those two foreign countries).

Best,
Gordon

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:19 pm

Gordon wrote:

"I know; you're really from Texas, Stuart. One of these days, you'll visit us in the US, which lies between those two foreign countries. "

Congratulations Gordon - On a dark, gloomy, cold, drizzly day, when little else has been good, you managed to make me laugh out loud!

If either you or Stuart would like to meet in neutral territory, feel free to drop by my homestead on the prairie for a pint which would be close to half way for both of you.

Eric

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:22 pm

Gordon wrote:No, I never missed the point; just don't agree it works for any purpose, disclaimer notwithstanding. James' efforts, though, are always appreciated, if not for the sound samples, then for these personal exchanges with our Canadian friends (I know; you're really from Texas, Stuart. One of these days, you'll visit us in the US, which lies between those two foreign countries).

Rarrrr!

OK, first off, yeah, I know you didn't miss the point. I was kidding since either you or I always chimes in with "Comparisons Don't Tell You Diddly" when someone posts a comparison. I was trying to be all sarcastic and stuff, and failed. Boo hoo.

Want to touch the Double Blind Test in Music? 10-foot pole handy?

US? Do I fly over that to get home from here?

Stuart

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:43 pm

sturob wrote:Want to touch the Double Blind Test in Music? 10-foot pole handy?
Stuart

I move that James shuffle the order of these flutes, record them again, and let us try to identify which one is which. We could also vote for our favorite, and least-favorite flutes.

Any seconds to the motion?

Dana

rama · Post by **rama** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:45 pm

Dana,

My previous rating was almost the exact opposite of my favorite in flutes.
I really wanted the Hamilton to sound better than it did and really hoped the silverflute would fair the worst. But that isn't the way I heard it.
James was allegedly demonstrating glottal stops as he knows them and not demonstating the potential of the various flutes. It is less about the inherent capability of the flutes and more about James' ability to play and control them while attempting a new 'technique' for him. I think he is appreciating the subtle skill of Itrad fluting - not so easy as it sounds. So I feel the order of flutes or which-flute-is-which would become inconsequential. Just some of my thoughts. But it is always fun to guess. I think I may be able to pick up on some of James' patterns in his playing of some of the different flutes. But ultimately I think it becomes more of a study of his playing and not the instruments. we are becoming more familiar with his playing and growth.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:47 pm

Dana gets it.

However, much though I'd enjoy it (at first, anyway), I can't do that. Right now, a few folks are only slightly irritated.

Since all is quiet, keep it so: wake not the sleeping wolf.

--James

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:51 am

The Boehm was definitely the most in tune, I thought. I was disapponted with the intonation of the M&E's and also, to some extent with the Hammy - but I loved its tone (those spacey shapes on my Windows Media Player were looking pretty aggressive - I knew they were there for a reason!)

James, is it possible that the intonation (especially on the lower register) is suffering because you are switching between flutes in a short space of time and so not having the opportunity to settle in your blowing to suit each flute? - just a thought, the flute dilution theory!

Nice recordings yet again though, thanks for sharing them. It's a shame the you feel that you have to put the disclaimer on your post - kind of like the lid on a cup of McDonalds coffee "warning, contents may be hot".

I'm off to make a cup off coffee before my employer takes the fuse out of the plug to prevent a law suit arising from scalding injuries

Cheers

Graham

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:09 am

Actually if I didn't play the Boehm-system flute alongside the others, I doubt you'd notice a difference.

Any of these flutes, for instance, is in tune when playing with whistles, guitar, fiddle...although if you're going to play in unison with a piano, then you're going to want either the Boehm or the Hammy.

It's not that simple-system flutes are tuned wrong--although to someone used only to hearing Boehm-system flutes, they will certainly sound like it at first--they are tuned differently. (I remember when I first heard a Cheiftains recording I thought "Oh my God! Their intonation is horrible! Ugh!" and now on the same recording I think "Damn! They are really tightly in tune!") Intonation isn't only in the hands that play, it is in the ears that hear.

--- o --- O --- o ---

On the flute comparisons, I should point out that I don't record these to post them. Rather, I am almost always working on some comparison or other for myself, as part of my unique approach to learning all I can about these instruments and how to play them.

I post what I consider the best played and most revealing of these comparisons to share them with anyone with similar interests.

A person with a firm conviction that the best way to learn flute is to zero in like a laser on one instrument and play just that one flute for your whole life will likely find nothing of value in these comparisons at all.

There's nothing wrong with that approach--until something bad happens to your one Magic Flute and you have to start over--but it's not the approach fate has chosen for me.

I do these comparisons primarily for myself, and would keep doing them if I never posted another one publicly for the rest of my life. I have learned a great deal about how to recognize and then use the strengths of different kinds of flutes from these comparisons.

I post these in the hopes that they will be seen and will appeal to those with a similar interest and curiosity. And as I've said before, I encourage others to make such recordings as well, and even to post them if they wish (and if they've the guts to undergo this kind of scrutiny).

I have learned so much from doing them, and my feeling is that there is so much more to be learned in this way.

Others may disagree--I invite them to continue learning in the way they find most effective for themselves, while I do the same.

--James

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:42 am

sturob wrote:
Gordon wrote:No, I never missed the point; just don't agree it works for any purpose, disclaimer notwithstanding. James' efforts, though, are always appreciated, if not for the sound samples, then for these personal exchanges with our Canadian friends (I know; you're really from Texas, Stuart. One of these days, you'll visit us in the US, which lies between those two foreign countries).
Rarrrr!

OK, first off, yeah, I know you didn't miss the point. I was kidding since either you or I always chimes in with "Comparisons Don't Tell You Diddly" when someone posts a comparison. I was trying to be all sarcastic and stuff, and failed. Boo hoo.

Want to touch the Double Blind Test in Music? 10-foot pole handy?

US? Do I fly over that to get home from here?
Stuart

Stuart, I, for one, knew that you knew that I didn't miss the point, you know? My clarification was given for all the people that didn't know that I didn't miss the point, since this is a semi-public forum and only 98% of this forum may have read my earlier rants and raves, and a few lucky souls haven't, against these taste-tests.
While your intentions, James, may not be to compare flutes for purchasing reasons, to compare techniques like glottals on flutes for comparison, without curmudgeons such as myself, et al, railing against the validity of such tests, there would be (and are) still those out there that will hear these comparisons and choose a purchase based on how well or not James' recording fared against another.
And, by the by, James, I think you still misunderstand the "work with one flute" theory; very few recommend a lifetime of only one flute (although many will ultimately prefer a favorite and be found more often than not with that flute in hand); rather, the idea is to really get to know a flute intimately. It is, with this logic, completely likely that even though you don't play your Boehm nearly as much anymore, you still respond to it very favorably for all the years you put in on it, and it shows in your recording, even if, playing an Irish tune, there were some technical problems you felt you did not have on the conicals.
But, perhaps I'm beating this point with Stuart's 10 foot pole?
Gordon

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:26 am

It's not that I misunderstand the "work with one flute" thing: it's that, for me at this time, it's not a valid approach. Like so much else in life, I didn't just decide that: fate has.

If I decide to zero in on one flute once I have the 8-key body for the Hammy it'll be a lot easier to do.

I disagree that you have to play only one instrument to learn it intimately; in fact, I have found that what one flute teaches you, you can often turn around and apply immediately on another instrument. You get a sort of snowballing effect, and it takes every aspect of your playing forward.

If someone out there is using these comparisons to make flute purchasing decisions, then they are doing it directly against the wishes I've expressed in my disclaimer.

As far as a few folks "railing against" the comparisons when I post them, I expect it. It used to bother me but doesn't now: it's a bit like static on the radio. I comb through it for the bits of genuine advice which I can use, and the rest I basically ignore.

I will say it takes a lot of balls to put your music on the grill like I routinely do; evidentally not everyone has the fortitude to do it, including some of my most vocal detractors.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that it's easy to be very critical of someone else's approach when your own work is safely tucked away out of reach. If you want me to value your input more, post some tunes and show me why I should. And yep, that's a direct challenge.

--James

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:13 am

James, I'm all for the flute comparisons! My playing is far more basic than yours, and was especially at the time, but I did short flute comarisons almost a year ago. I have improved since then, but I still think comparisons are cool.

Here's the text of that post:
---------
I recorded the B part of Sarah Bauhan's She Left a Star on seven different flutes. I hope you enjoy the recordings!

Delrin Olwell Nicholson flute...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... Olwell.mp3

Ralph Sweet apple? flute with filled-in cracks and knotholes, a gem of a Sweet...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... /Sweet.mp3

Seery big holed flute...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... /Seery.mp3

My friend Terry Briley's 19th century 4-keyed boxwood flute by Wood and Ivy of London...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... od_Old.mp3

Terry's Olwell Pratten blackwood flute (wow)...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... ratten.mp3

Terry's M&E Rudall style flute...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... /ME_RR.mp3

Terry's McGee Rudall Perfected 6-key flute with thinned head and double rectangle embouchure (I had a little trouble with the lowest notes)...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... /McGee.mp3

And here's a (silly) bonus track of all 7 flutes together...

http://www.jessiekislin.com/music/Flute ... Flutes.mp3

Thank you, Terry, for the flutes! Terry drove in 6 inches of snow (with no snow tires, I am guessing) to deliver these flutes to be recorded and compared!

---------

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:25 am

This may surprise you, a bit, James, but I actually don't completely subscribe to the so-called "one-flute" idea myself, and I actually agree with your point(s) that working with separate flutes can teach you things you would not otherwise learn on the one flute.
That said, we're talking learning, versus performance, playing, and I believe that when you find yourself (or one finds oneself, rather) in a more professional setting, the intimacy of the very familiar flute takes on a new meaning that goes beyond a daily learning process. When I was working regularly, I found switching between flutes (and guitars, in another life) detrimental to a consistent performance on the one or two instruments I use. Some players don't, so I don't think this is a hard and fast rule, either, and for complete beginners, in any case, it's a moot point. My advice there is still to work on one flute first, but this altered topic can go on and on, too, so I'll let it go.
All the best,
Gordon

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:29 am

I agree with you Gordon that performing on one instrument is far better than switching (except for different keys). For years, I played the whistle in public and I played on the same whistle every time, even though I had many more to fool around with at home.