This Old Flute #2 - HF Meyer

[Carey]

Hi gang,

Well, I couldn't resist. I spotted another old German flute (actually the last one ended up being Czech) to fix up. I hope I didn't out-bid anyone here on E-bay. This one appears to be an actual Meyer as it is stamped H F Meyer Hannover (edit: used to say "Hamburg" but that was a brain-o) and it has evidence of the crown as well. The crown is not a real strong impression, but it's there in the ivory.

The head and barrel are lined, so of course they are cracked. My plan is to just fill the cracks and make them pretty, not to worry about closing them and re-boring for a flute like this. The ivory crack runs thru the embouchure sadly, so i can even attempt to play it yet. But the joins and pads are rotten anyway so it would be pointless, other than to toot the head and see what I thought of the cut of the embouchure.

You can see my "before" photos here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ParksWhistl ... directlink

I note the embouchure is just about the same shape I ended up with after re-cutting the first one. That hole was pretty small and round before surgery.

the bore seems nice and smooth except where the cork has been, so it should clean up OK. It appears the key fulcrums are threaded. I've not got after them yet. Hopefully they will come out OK.

Let me know if you have any ideas that would help me date it.

Cheers,

Carey

[jemtheflute]

Carey, IF it is a genuine Meyer it is worth considerably more than any Nach Meyer or other copy, and I agree, on the strength of the stamp, that its being genuine is a possibility. On that basis I very strongly advise you NOT to do anything drastic to it until you have sought authoritative opinion! Have a look at the Meyer page http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/meyer.htm on Rick Wilson's website - he might be a good person to consult! However, going on diagnostic info on that webpage, the direct- rather than plate-mounted pillars, the extra trill keys and the profile of the barrel argue against it being genuine.

The odds are, then, probably that it isn't genuine, but there is enough of a chance that it might be and therefore seriously valuable for it to be worth being patient and getting it checked. You may just have had a lucky strike! Even if it isn't genuine, it looks as though it might be one of the good quality copies (threaded key pivot pins is suggestive!) and worth treating with care and repect, not just hacking about as a junk flute.

Have a look on Facebook and YouTube for Adrianne Greenbaum playing Klezmer music on Meyer (the facebook link) and other C19th German style flutes - a Hungarian made one and a couple of others on the YouTube clips. Impressive!

[Jon C.]

Carey, IF it is a genuine Meyer it is worth considerably more than any Nach Meyer or other copy, and I agree, on the strength of the stamp, that its being genuine is a possibility. On that basis I very strongly advise you NOT to do anything drastic to it until you have sought authoritative opinion! Have a look at the Meyer page http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/meyer.htm on Rick Wilson's website - he might be a good person to consult! However, going on diagnostic info on that webpage, the direct- rather than plate-mounted pillars, the extra trill keys and the profile of the barrel argue against it being genuine.

The odds are, then, probably that it isn't genuine, but there is enough of a chance that it might be and therefore seriously valuable for it to be worth being patient and getting it checked. You may just have had a lucky strike! Even if it isn't genuine, it looks as though it might be one of the good quality copies (threaded key pivot pins is suggestive!) and worth treating with care and repect, not just hacking about as a junk flute.

Have a look on Facebook and YouTube for Adrianne Greenbaum playing Klezmer music on Meyer (the facebook link) and other C19th German style flutes - a Hungarian made one and a couple of others on the YouTube clips. Impressive!

Hi,
Here is a couple of photos of my HF Meyers, and a good nach Meyers. The one on the right is the original, you will notice the shape of the end crown, the key plates, and the shape of the barrel. The one on the left is a Lyon & Healy. The Myers is made of Madagascar rosewood, stamped with the crown on all sections. Here is a photo of the stamp.



Your crown stamp looks like mine, but I don' know about the rest of it. I think the keywork is a good indicator, if yours is a original or not. One thing I noticed on the original, the barrel ring is made of wood, and clad in nickel silver. You will also see a ring on the top of the upper section, next to the tenon. Also the shape of the barrel is unique on the originals.
One thing I notice, the short F on the original is quite different then yours.
Hope this helps.
I can send the original if you want to compare it...

[Carey]

Thanks Jon, I'll study your photos in the morning. I'm thinking its possible the head is a Meyer and the body is someone else because there are no stamps on anything but the head. But the foot ring looks a lot like the one on yours. I would imagine there are differences between Meyers of different periods too.

(edit to add...)
Oh, and look at the layout of the key touches on the upper joint. Not parallel like yours. I think that's the biggest clue. (The plot thickens.)

[Cork]

...This one appears to be an actual Meyer as it is stamped H F Meyer Hamburg...

Hmmm?

The H F Meyer flute I have here is marked as being from Hannover, not Hamburg.

[Jon C.]

...This one appears to be an actual Meyer as it is stamped H F Meyer Hamburg...

Hmmm?

The H F Meyer flute I have here is marked as being from Hannover, not Hamburg.

It's a typo, his says Hannover on his head joint. Actually the head joint stamp looks just like mine, so maybe your right Carey.

[Cork]

Somehow, I suspected that "Hamburg" was only a typo.

The Meyer flute I have here is only marked on the barrel, and nowhere else that I can see.

It has a lined wood head joint, and a lined barrel.

It also leaks, causing the bottom octave to suck.

It really needs a serious overhaul.

:-)

[Cayden]

Here's another nine key one, no cracks. Fine, if a bit quiet, player

[Carey]

The barrel seems shaped like Jon's Meyer. The head and barrel are lined with German silver not brass like my Czech nach. Anyone have insight on the lining materials?

(And I edited the brain-o where I said Hamburg to Hannover.)

[Carey]

I think the keywork is a good indicator, if yours is a original or not. One thing I noticed on the original, the barrel ring is made of wood, and clad in nickel silver. You will also see a ring on the top of the upper section, next to the tenon. Also the shape of the barrel is unique on the originals.
One thing I notice, the short F on the original is quite different then yours.

I haven't got the barrel ring off yet, but the inside of the ring on top of the bottom joint was wood colored, but when I scratched the inner face to see if it was wood I easily scratched down to metal. What would be the point of a wooden ring anyway? Seems odd to me.

And I quite agree the short F is very different from yours, but it looks a lot like the one in Peter Laban's photo. I wish he had the extra keys on the top join as well for comparison. so I could see the D key between Cnat and the trill key.

[Carey]

Here's another nine key one, no cracks. Fine, if a bit quiet, player

Thanks a lot for that photo Peter. From what I can see of it, the posts appear to be mounted directly on the body. And you short F key looks the same shape as mine. Do you happen to know the ear of your flute? I have heard that early H F Meyer's were mounted on plates but the later ones were direct on the body.

[Cork]

Apparently there are "Meyer" flutes, and apparently there also are numerous "Nach Meyer", or copies of Meyer flutes.

The Meyer flute I have has post mounted keys, all ten of them mounted directly on the wood, and, from what I can see, is marked "H F Meyer, Hannover" in only one place, on its barrel. There is no serial number, and, from what I've been able to gather on this thread, apparently I have a later-made Meyer flute.

Therefore, and as my question, please, could I have an actual Meyer flute, or, could it be a knock off, of some kind?

Basically, I'm just curious, thank you.

BTW, although it leaks badly, it appears to more or less be "all there", with good potential, and what scale I can get out of it isn't all that bad.

[Carey]

Hi Cork,

As I understand it from my research on "This Old Flute #1" H F Meyer made flutes from something like 1848 thru the start of the 20th century. And lots of companies copied his flutes. I also understand that "nach" means "after the fashion" or something like that. Which makes me think that it's possible "knock off" could have come from "nach of" ? Probably a big stretch.

Here's some links to more details:
http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/meyer.htm Rick Wilson's fine old flute web site.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dcmhtml/meyer.html

Talking with others and seeing photographs of flutes that are deemed actual Meyer's I'm starting to believe that the post-on-a-plate approach Rick mentions was not used later on in the Meyer work. But I'm far from expert at it.

As you will see on the links above, having a nach does not mean you have a lesser flute. My nach Meyer, which I play at sessions and get compliments on it's tone (someday I'll get compliments on my playing too) can be seen here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/parkscarey/VintageFlute#
which you can compare to the photos of the flute I suspect is a Meyer at
http://picasaweb.google.com/ParksWhistles/HFMeyerFlute#

Watching all the flutes pass thru e-bay I saw one that looks exactly like my nach Meyer, down to the smallet detail, but it had a makers stamp on it. That flute was made in the Czech Republic or someplace near there that kept changing hands after this or that war.

I did sharpen the nach Meyer up as it played A=435 or so when I got it. I shortened the head joint and that sorted the top hand pretty much, and I enlarged the bottom hand holes a LOT. But they were quite small so that's OK too.

[Jon C.]

I think the keywork is a good indicator, if yours is a original or not. One thing I noticed on the original, the barrel ring is made of wood, and clad in nickel silver. You will also see a ring on the top of the upper section, next to the tenon. Also the shape of the barrel is unique on the originals.
One thing I notice, the short F on the original is quite different then yours.

I haven't got the barrel ring off yet, but the inside of the ring on top of the bottom joint was wood colored, but when I scratched the inner face to see if it was wood I easily scratched down to metal. What would be the point of a wooden ring anyway? Seems odd to me.

And I quite agree the short F is very different from yours, but it looks a lot like the one in Peter Laban's photo. I wish he had the extra keys on the top join as well for comparison. so I could see the D key between Cnat and the trill key.

It took a lot of work to make metal clad wood rings! My thought on it was for weight, you can have a good thick rings and make them real light. I can't see it being cheaper, as it was nickel silver. one of my Blackman flutes have metal clad wood rings also. They even rapped the metal all the way around the ring, so it was hard to tell.
I haven't heard about later made Meyers flutes, having stright post mounts, but it makes sense.
Here is a photo of the one out of 9 Meyers flutes in the Dayton collection that doesn't have plates to mount the key. Each section is stamped with the crown and makers mark.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?d ... ammem_iW2e::

Also, the key design and barrel shape is the same with all the other Meyers flutes in the Dayton collection.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

[Carey]

Hi Jon,

I went looking, and came up with this flute in the Dayton collection: DCM 0089: Heinrich Friedrich Meyer / Flute in C where the short F key touch matches the touch on mine, but these posts are on plates. A lot can change over 50 years, at least I hope so.

I think for the time being I'm going to say it "probably" is a Meyer, and keep an open mind and see what other evidence comes to light.

I'll start cleaning it up and replace the corks. I think I might try and get the head lining out and see how closed the crack will go. There's some stuff in there that looks like a past glue job. If I can get it to close up much at all I'll glue it but not fill the crack all the way, then sand the ID out to fit the liner. (Thanks Jem.) That way I can reserve the dust to color match the glue at the top of the crack. Sounds good anyway.

Cheers,

Carey