C Natural thumb hole

[jim stone]

Curious about people's experiences with these.
Useful? Is the position good, in your experience?

I've just figured out how to use one on a whistle and
it seems a lot easier to use than a C natural key,
in principle. Just lift the thumb. Also a lot cheaper.

What do you think?

P.S. I reckon this would mean you can't use your thumb
for a Bb key, which is fine with me, in fact, as
I readily half-hole the Bb. I noticed that the
the flute Dana sold recently with a thumb-hole
had a rt hand Bb lever.

[Irish Marine]

It's funny that you should post this now Jim, as I just had the chance play someone's Rudall-style flute made my McGee with a c thumbhole. I found it to be placed in a great spot and it was easy to play the flute with it covered; in fact, I almost forgot it was there! I found it a little tricky to actually play the C natural by lifting the thumb, but that' b/c I had two minutes with it. I bet if I had more time with it it would become second nature. It's cheaper than having the key!

[jim stone]

Thanks. I know in the case of the whistle it was tricky for a couple of times,
then it was there. Not hard to pick up, at least on whistle.
And it enables you to play the C natural very easily in positions
where you would have to do some interesting stretches to
get to the C natural key--especially when moving quickly tween
F sharp or E, say, C natural and back down to F sharp.


Is it possible this is a better option?

[Trip-]

I had a chance to check out a Reviol flute with that thumbhole.
It doesn't apply at all to people who hold the flute 'pipers' way. I can't lift the thumb or else the flute falls down.
And of course the hole is in a place my thumb never really reaches naturally.

But the user says it's a really good thing to have... so I guess it's not bad, for the right grip.

[bepoq]

I've not been impressed with the thumb hole myself, and am fond of the C key. I've a few instruments with the hole (a McGee piccolo I got from someone on here, and a couple of modernised quena/ney things). I find that that I use the cross fingering more for the piccolo, even having developed pretty good facility with the thumb hole - In addition, having to keep the thumb well placed to cover it at all other times I find to be constricting.

If you are having to do a big stretch between any of the notes you've mentioned there Jim, then you are not using the key correctly, as no such stretch should be necessary. Try moving your index finger forward over the flute to strike the key with its side (perhaps at the knuckle) rather than sidewise to place the finger on it.

[hans]

I love it on keyless flutes.
Got used to it very quickly.
Gives a strong clean C natural, and an accurate C#,
especially the corresponding notes on a Bb flute
don't suffer the compromise a missing C nat hole inflicts.
If you use the classical grip, go for it!

My ideal position for it is half way between first and second hole,
on the backside at the five o'clock position
(150 degrees right-way around from the top for the left thumb)

~Hans

[talasiga]

Jim, I like my C nat. thumbhole so much that I would not ever have a C nat key for that.

A few years ago Terry McGee placed one for me when I made a special pilgrimage to his workshop.

I used to use full bansuric grip on the flute before that but I have had to sacrifice that on the higher hand because the bansuric grip requires the top thumb at c. 3.30pm at a point very near the tuning slide (or so).

I would not have a thumbhole on a flute with bansuric holes which means a flute on which everything can be reached with sliding as can be with large tonehole whistles. However a thumbhole beats cross fingering on any instrument where sliding for it is not easy. And, one can still cross finger for different shades of C nat anyway.

As a listener I find that the major cleavage between the ITM whistle tradition and the ITM flute tradition is that latter has not yet achieved the heights of sliding that the virtuosi of whistles have. This, I believe, will change as more top end IT flautists use bansuris or "bansuric type" flutes, namely, flutes not of the pre 20th century classical flute tradition with smallish holes (even the large holed ones are samll if compare their ratio to body with ratio to body of whistles - also taking into account thickness of body)..

I guess my last paragraph above is a kind of a caution that sort of goes against the enthusiasm i expressed at the onset. That is to say, if you want your articualtion to be as "slidey" as a great whistle players, forget the hole. However, if you have a standard sort of Irish flute you aren't ever gonna get the level of "slidey" articualtion of the whistle anyway. In otherr words, if you dont want a thumbhole for a keyless flute get a bansuri or other flute where you can slide it perfectly and easily.

So, there is another one of my multi-angled posts for you JIm. Hope you find it interesting.

[ChrisCracknell]

I have thumb holes on all my flutes now. And on the keyed McGee GLP I got Terry to make a body section with a right hand Bflat touch, i.e. where the C Natural key would otherwise be and also coincidentally, where one of the Bflat touches on the boehm flute is also to be found. This solves the problem of the Bflat key. (Incidentally, I am now not sure what to do with the original three key body section. I kept it against the possible resale of the flute, but now I have no intention of ever selling the flute... hmmm...)

I find it easier than the C Natural key, but then I am also a Boehm flute player. Acoustically it is exactly the same as the key would be, except that you can slide it too. Having it does not mean that you stop using the cross fingerings - they still have their place.

Positioning (for me) is about 120 degrees radially towards me away from the top holes on the flute. But try your grip out and mark where you think it should be. I have a G Bleazey where the hole is directly opposite the top holes (it was already there when I bought it), and it is, frankly, a pain - so much so that I am thinking of blocking it and either having a new hole made, or doing without.

Having the hole is something that you either do or don't - playing a mix of flutes, some with and some without would be (is...) annoying. Although one can get used to anything. And I believe the left hand piper's grip pretty much excludes the use of a thumb hole too.

Chris.

[jim stone]

If you are having to do a big stretch between any of the notes you've mentioned there Jim, then you are not using the key correctly, as no such stretch should be necessary. Try moving your index finger forward over the flute to strike the key with its side (perhaps at the knuckle) rather than sidewise to place the finger on it.

Thanks, for the tip; this is helpful.

I've managed to damage the tendon in my left index; overuse; pure stupidity;
slowly healing.
So it's a good idea to avoid using it for awhile. I'm trying to use the C nat key
in places where previously I would cross finger C nat. In fact I can arrange
very rarely to raise the left index. E.G. I can vent the second octave
D with the C natural key.

Some C natural keys extend back further toward R1 than others do.
These make note shifts back and forth from E, say, easier. (Shifting
back and forth tween second octave D and C nat is still a challenge.)
But i take it it's doable generally.

Thanks to everyone for these great comments. I'm thinking
of trying to retrofitt keyless flutes (and some whistles) for a thumb hole.

My one brush with a thumb-holed flute was a Healy flute; the hole
seemed to be placed comfortably.

[bepoq]

Hiya Jim,

You are right of course - key placement can change how much movement is needed, but usually only in a very tiny range - that is, you are also right that it doesn't take much adjustment, and it is a rare flute who's C key gives me any trouble after a few seconds of playing.

As to venting the C, perhaps you should play it unvented (a la Mike Rafferty) for the while your finger is healing, and get used to the alternative sound offered by that way of playing. Ideally, I think, you should be able to play ds both ways depending on which sound of the D you want at the instant, the cleaner purer sound of the vented d, or the rawer, more complex and overtone filled sound of the unvented one.

[jim stone]

Much encouraged by this news about
C natural keys. Didn't know they could do that.
I like your description of the
unvented second octave D.

Meanwhile I've written to Chris Abell to see if he will put a thumb hole in my
old D whistle. He says he will, no charge. How nice.

Also written to Dave C to ask if he does this. I have
a lovely old D keyless, with a brass slide, he made for me; also one of
the great F flutes he makes.

Definitely want to be busking this Christmas, if possible.

[jim stone]

Dave C writes to say he will retrofit a thumb hole, on both the D flute and the F flute,
for 25 bucks each plus shipping.

[Doug_Tipple]

I have a C natural thumb hole on my personal pvc flute, but I generally keep it covered with masking tape. I use the C natural key on my silver flute, but on my simple system flutes, I have grown accustomed to playing a cross-fingered C natural. I like not having to keep the thumb hole completely covered when I am not playing C natural.

[jim stone]

This aft the flutes arrived back from Dave Copley,
the D and the F, both his flutes. Very quick turn around.
Lovely work and, yes, I like the thumb holes very much.
Perfectly in tune in both octaves and much easier
to use than a key, for me anyway. I've been practicing
with a key shifting from C nat to second octave D
and back. Not so easy. This is much more easy
and natural. But I won't give up on getting
the hang of the C natural key.

Anyhow the thumb hole seems an integral and
a natural addition to the flutes. Very pleased.

[Casey Burns]

I groan when people ask me to do this. And I usually refuse.

One thing - in order to test a flute the maker has to be able to properly play it. When unconventional holes are added - it becomes impossible to test the flute properly, unless the maker commits to that new system. With excellent cross fingerings (0X0 XXX on my flutes) a C hole is superfluous.

Another thing - what happens down the road when these flutes are passed on to future generations? I for one would like to be eventually remembered for flutes that work fwell or most people, not a bunch of oddball flutes out there!

Casey