Non-sticky: Not Posting Clips

[peeplj]

I think most of you are missing the point... the purpose of posting, listening, and giving and receiving feedback should be to encourage one another, acknowledge common challenges, and provide some direction. Perhaps the greatest reason for posting is the need for affirmation. Knowing one is not alone in a struggle provides greater strength in any challenge.

You'll get no argument from me.

I just wish everyone looked at it this way.

--James

[crookedtune]

Interesting discussion, (as it was the last few times around).

I'm in the camp that believes that if you feel like you're starting to sound authoritative, and voicing strong opinions, criticism or pointers ---- yeah, a clip adds to your credibility.

Should it be required? No. Those whose theoretical knowledge outstrips their learned skills and talent can't really fool anyone for long anyway, no matter how much they post. Regular readers quickly learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. For me, that's part of the fun.

[mahanpots]

I wrote:

In the spirit of sharing, I believe everyone who can should post a clip.

Let me rephrase that:

I think it would be beneficial to everyone, if those capable would post a clip.

Michael

[brotherwind]

I think most of you are missing the point... the purpose of posting, listening, and giving and receiving feedback should be to encourage one another, acknowledge common challenges, and provide some direction. Perhaps the greatest reason for posting is the need for affirmation. Knowing one is not alone in a struggle provides greater strength in any challenge.

This is the best one so far. To my eyes, this is essentially the reason, why I am visiting this forum.

Once in a while, even a skillfull argument is entertaining. But at the end, every word needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Moritz

[daiv]

i dont think you should have to post a clip to say something authoritative or not. sometimes, if i say something, people think i'm being authoritative. i think, then, that is there problem, not mine.

the only reason a clip is necessary is to prove one's authoritativeness. if someone is not trying to prove that they are being authoritative, then why should it be necessary?

there is another dimension to this that has not been considered. just because someone is a good player does not mean that they have any idea on how to communicate the tradition. some world class players are really good at teaching, and some are not. i think spending time with and learning from any of them is a great experience, because hearing them play and their viewpoints are great, even if they have no idea to put in words what they are doing.

as the advice here is mostly verbal, then spending time with experienced players is less beneficial, because it becomes necessary for someone to be good at explaining things verbally.

right now, my rhythm is sketchy, at best. this is why i do not give advice on rhythm. i have learned many things from many people about what to do about this, but as i have not gotten a handle on it i usually end up reading and learning as well. i have spent a long time working on tone--too much time, probably--so i will talk about that, though i am by no means a master at it.

i think that it would be a good idea, as technology progresses, if we were to do more threads where someone would post a clip, ask a question, and then people would respond and play back. i think that would be really beneficial. even informal webcam lessons would be great. i think that we could definitely work on getting this forum to take advantage of the social mechanisms that are used in the real world that make learning from experienced players beneficial.

if someone has good advice, they have good advice, plain and simple--it does not need to be validated.

[jim stone]

Here's a good deal of the problem with the 'post a clip' agenda.

Here's a post I wrote on the 'six or eight key' thread. I'm responding
to Blackwood who says it's really hard to half-hole the Eb.
He's for keys, no question.

'I've heard it said a fair amount that Eb is a note
not much needed in ITM, which is my impression too.
Eb is certainly the most challenging half-hole for me.

As to the other keyed notes, volume seems good, to my
ear, anyhow,
and intonation is as good as you are.
Surely most of us have already mastered
harder things.

I think keys are nice to have, no question, and
can be helpful, again no question. And they're
beautiful.

But I don't much use them, I find, except
for the C natural key. I sometimes positively
prefer to half-hole the Bb. The intonation issue
is arguably a blessing too-because ultimately
you can do stuff with the note.

This isn't an axe I have to grind. I like
keyed flutes. But I doubt that one positively
needs one for ITM. One seldom uses the
keys and most of the time when I do,
half holing serves well enough.'

I take this to be a not-unreasonable post, though obviously one about which reasonable folks may disagree. It's reasonably tentative. Several others say the same thing, others are much more emphatic about the
need for keys. Good discussion.

Here's the response, because I haven't posted a clip.


Quote:
I've heard it said a fair amount that Eb is a note not much needed in ITM, which is my impression too.

Sure, if you're a chancer whose interest in ITM is as a busker specializing in such all-time favorites as Yankee Doodle and Happy Birthday, then keys aren't all that essential.

But for people who like to play such tunes as The Broken Pledge, Eileen Curran, Bear Island, The Jaundiced Itinerant (as written) and some lovely tunes written by Tom McElvogue, keys are a wonderful addition to the simple flute.

Until you have attained a certain degree of proficiency - and shared it with us - I don't think one should be recommending anything, with or without equivocation. Great ITM players like Seamus Tansey or Mike McGoldrick, who play keyless flutes (or flutes rendered keyless), are a rarity in the pantheon - for a reason.'

Note that I haven't recommended anything, so the real force of this response is that one shouldn't even post an opinion without attaining proficiency and posting a clip. I see this sort of thing as bad for the board. Many haven't the equipment and the know-how to post a clip, others don't want to, for whatever reason. Who is going to express an opinion if this is what's in store? Really chilling. Definitely a dark side here.

No way I'm going to be bullied into posting a clip–I expect others share the sentiment. This business has been contaminated by too much nastiness; there's been a good deal of harassment. I've said repeatedly that I wanted to post a clip but don't have the equipment and the know-how. I was getting close to it, in fact, through the help of
board members and looking forward to it. I thought this business was over.
But I've said I would do it only when it was clear this bullshiite was finished.

We all of us have the right to express our views here, nobody has to prove anything to anybody, nobody short of a moderator gets to tell the rest of us what's required as a matter of 'fairness' in posting. People
who participate a lot incur no special duty to 'establish their
credibility.' Notice the complaint isn't with the substance of what anyone's said, it's with their audacity in daring to say it. That's a serious misunderstanding, IMO.
We're all onboard, everybody gets to say what they think, nobody gets to control the board, and clips, a welcome addition, are icing on that cake.

[Loren]

Interesting conversation.

My opinions fall under the category of "Put up or shut up" with regards to advice giving: I mean if you can't play, don't give advice on playing. If can't make a good instrument and/or don't have any experience restoring instruments, then fer crissakes don't give others advice on how to fix their instruments.

It would all be much simpler and better around here if folks knew their limitations and were honest about it - with themselves and others. I don't give much advice on playing ITM because I consider myself a pretty lame ITM player, so I generally keep my friggin' mouth shut and try to learn from those who know more in this regard.

OTH, as a maker I give advice, and I have the experience and training to back it up. Jon and Casey have both called me out recently with regards to maker related stuff. In Casey's case I responded, and hopefully no feelings were hurt. In Jon's case I let it slide because I didn't feel the need to once again post pictures of my work and talk about all the important people who trained where I did. Either way, I have provided C&Fers with enough proof over the years that I'm not some punter on these issues.

That said, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those who constantly offer offer advice on any subject(s) to prove that they are worth listening to. That is, in fact, how things work in the real world, so why is it that it shouldn't be the same here? I mean it constantly confounds me that it's not acceptable in daily life for one to act as something one is not, yet here it's okay. Why is that? (Rhetorical question, I know the answer, of course)

Really. if someone is going to throw up a full 11,000 plus posts (11 freakin' thousand!) And the majority of those posts are offering strong opinions and advice about flutes and flute playing, then one ought post some clips. I honestly don't understand how anyone can find that an unrealistic or unfair expectation.




Loren

[ImNotIrish]

there is another dimension to this that has not been considered. just because someone is a good player does not mean that they have any idea on how to communicate the tradition. some world class players are really good at teaching, and some are not.

as the advice here is mostly verbal, then spending time with experienced players is less beneficial, because it becomes necessary for someone to be good at explaining things verbally.



if someone has good advice, they have good advice, plain and simple--it does not need to be validated.

Which brings to mind the saying that "just because you know something, doesn't mean you can teach it." Interpretations of 'advice' are as subjective as anything else. Different things work for different people. For example, on the issue of tone, I have been told that I have a 'good' tone. Yet I am not one to reply to request regarding how to get a good tone, or a raspy tone. I actually discovered on my own how to get that 'raspy' sound, and later read through posts where the advice given was indeed counter to what I had discovered. Good? Bad? If it works for you, then go for it. Advice is, in the end, just advice. It is neither good nor bad. Rather, it works for you, or it doesn't.

Arbo

[dhamilingu]

Hi folks,

Interesting discussion. Just a couple of comments that come to mind:

- I would agree with Diane that some kinds of advice to a beginner might be best coming from another beginner - obviously not advice on playing technique, but rather on the process of learning, mistakes made as a beginner, etc. Some kinds of advice need to come from a person occupying roughly the same subject position, from someone seeing and hearing the world of flute-playing with a similar set of eyes and ears.

- I also agree with the post which pointed out that a person may not be technically proficient on an instrument, but who may have spent a lifetime deeply studying musical traditions. Again, a certain kind of advice from such a person might be quite useful (again, not on technique)

- Something I didn't see mentioned above is the case of someone with considerable experience as a musician, but who is a beginner on the flute. I could imagine lots of useful advice from such a person on general musicianship which would be extremely valuable to someone who is new to both music and to the flute.

None of this would preclude posting a clip, and I like very much the idea that posting a clip here is like playing a piece or offering a song in a session - it is the sociable thing to do. However, there is an undercurrent in this discussion which goes beyond sociability, and clearly implies that some opinions are better than others. Opinions on technical matters are obviously best made by those with the requisite experience (although it is an open question how much experience is required). However, it would be a shame if a "put up or shut up" attitude concerning technical matters ended up flowing over to all discussion, or to kinds of advice which any competent musician ought to be able to offer, or any intelligent person ought to be able to offer, or any fellow-traveller-beginner ought to be able to offer.

Anyway, as I said, none of this necessarily precludes posting a clip. But it doesn't seem like a neutral request...

Pete (no clip...yet!)

[Denny]

strong opinions and advice about flutes and flute playing

Vewwy sexy!

Shirley

[Loren]

None of this would preclude posting a clip, and I like very much the idea that posting a clip here is like playing a piece or offering a song in a session - it is the sociable thing to do. However, there is an undercurrent in this discussion which goes beyond sociability, and clearly implies that some opinions are better than others. Opinions on technical matters are obviously best made by those with the requisite experience (although it is an open question how much experience is required). However, it would be a shame if a "put up or shut up" attitude concerning technical matters ended up flowing over to all discussion, or to kinds of advice which any competent musician ought to be able to offer, or any intelligent person ought to be able to offer, or any fellow-traveller-beginner ought to be able to offer.

Anyway, as I said, none of this necessarily precludes posting a clip. But it doesn't seem like a neutral request...

Pete (no clip...yet!)

Pete,

Good points. Here's how it seems to me:

You have a local session, (a community event) where people come and go, while other stay etc. If you show up and play tunes with everyone else, even if it's just a few tunes, then you are typically welcome and respected to a certain degree. Should you offer advice to another new player, no one much bats an eye and all is well, because you are participating.

Now imagine the person who shows up to the weekly session and constantly talks about their opinions of the music, the players, the technique and the gear. This person hangs out and expounds endlessly to new session attendees who don't know any better, but this person never actually plays a tune with the rest of the sessioners. Would there be anything dark and unfortunate about the regular members of the session saying "Hey, you know you talk about and offer advice about flute playing, flutes keys, instructional materials, etc. etc., but you've never actually played a single tune here, you simply show up and pontificate. Please have a few tunes with us so that we know you are for real." Is that unreasonable?


Loren

[crookedtune]

Yay! This thread, and the other about oiling, are the good old Chiff & Fipple we've all come to know and love! I guess we're out of the doldrums for a little while!

[Cork]

...Now imagine the person who shows up to the weekly session and constantly talks about their opinions of the music, the players, the technique and the gear. This person hangs out and expounds endlessly to new session attendees who don't know any better, but this person never actually plays a tune with the rest of the sessioners. Would there be anything dark and unfortunate about the regular members of the session saying "Hey, you know you talk about and offer advice about flute playing, flutes keys, instructional materials, etc. etc., but you've never actually played a single tune here, you simply show up and pontificate. Please have a few tunes with us so that we know you are for real." Is that unreasonable?...

My point is that this is an Internet gathering, and not a session, please. Sessions tend to be an individual exchange of musicianship, one on one, but otherwise there seem to be limits as to what the 'net can currently do. That is, what happens at a session is "immediate", but no matter how one could otherwise try, any clip posted on the 'net inevitably becomes something of a record to be compared to, and, yes, flute players do tend to compare, BTDT.

Worse, perhaps such a comparison could all too easily lead to a ranking of abilities. For instance, what if a person could be a really good player, and could post a clip or more, then are others to blindly follow? That sort of thing happens all too frequently, as it is, and IMO to the detriment of good musicianship. Let freedom ring!

I post as Joe Clown, and I stay away from interpretive issues, but when it comes to the mechanics of playing a flute, well, apparently that can be done with some success on the 'net, with no lasting ill effect, and if somebody could have yet another approach to a technique, then so be it.

I enjoy helping others to get going, on their own, but not much past that, for that is where they grow, independently.

[sbfluter]

I'm a beginner and a relatively awful player, but any advice I may have for people whose hands are the same size as mine about the finger spacing of the flutes I have played is not going to ruin anybody's life with inaccuracy.

[flutefry]

Those of us with long memories can recall when a teenager who posted frequently to this board was goaded into posting a clip to "back up" his opinions. The unhappy result was that now the folks who didn't like him had an additional weapon to use, so they shredded his playing as well as his opinions. Sounds to me too much like schoolyards where those who don't fit in are goaded into fighting to justify their existence, and then get humiliated in a different way by getting beaten up.

I regret not having said or written anything the first time this happened, so I am writing now. I think Jim is being bullied here, and I think that's unfortunate. I realize there are people here who are arguing for posting clips for the right reasons. Fair enough. I am criticizing those who are making no secret of their dislike for Jim, and who are using the fact that he hasn't posted a clip as another club to beat him with.

Hugh