i figured out the silver flute

[jim stone]

Thanks, James.

Here are some of the higher prices:

POWELL #09485 – 10K gold headjoint, body and footjoint with sterling silver keys, toneholes, ribs, posts and rings. French model handmade in 1995. B-foot with gizmo and D# roller, C-foot, open hole, in-line G. Comes with two 10K gold headjoints with sterling silver lipplates. Excellent condition. $21,000

POWELL #11460 – Grenadilla wood headjoint, body and footjoint. French model handmade in 2002. 9k gold keys and mechanism. Comes with both B-foot with gizmo and C-foot. Open hole, 1/2-offset G, split E, engraved keywork, Modern Powell scale, A442. Double case. Mint condition. $21,500 (PRICE JUST REDUCED!)

POWELL #11636 – Aurumite 14k with sterling silver keys, and 14k gold tone holes, posts, ribs and rings. French model handmade in 2002. B-foot, open hole, in-line G, gizmo, C# trill, D# roller, .016" wall thickness, Modern Powell scale, A442. Excellent condition. $13,500

POWELL #12100 – 19.5k gold headjoint, body and footjoint with 14k gold mechanism. French model handmade in 2003. B-foot, open hole, in-line G, gizmo, Modern Powell scale, A442, Boston cut headjoint. Mint condition. $28,500

[peeplj]

Yep, high-end flutes are very expensive.

Look at it this way: for a high-end flute, you sell your new car.

For a high-end violin, you sell your new house.

It's all relative.

--James

[Dana]

Most high-end silver flutes are selling for around $12,000 these days. The ones on the list above all seem to be made of gold, or at least have gold headjoints.

For those of you that complain about the airy, boring, weak or clacky sound of a Boehm flute - try one of the truly professional ones (plus ya gotta learn to play one to really judge it). Or just listen to one of the greats (in your favored style of music) play. The instrument is a tool. The player makes the sound. Of course, a good tool makes this easier, or can add new dimensions to the player's arsenal.

Oh no, not the "player vs. the flute" topic again.

Dana

[sbfluter]

Seems to me that if you have to ask how much a high end flute is you don't need one.

I bought a Gemeinhardt mid-range flute off Craigslist for $45. I spent another $75 fixing a few of the pads. New, a similar flute is about $800.

Save your money! Do it the "trad way" and buy the cast-offs of the orchestra musicians when they trade up.

[desutoroiyaa]

My silver Boehm was about $4000 or so. It's really a very good flute-- I can match the tone to an Irish flute pretty closely. I'll agree that silver flutes are largely overpriced-- a $12600 flute is probably going to be a lot better than a $600 flute, but it probably isn't going to be $12000 better, if you get my point.

Some flutes are clickier than others.

A high-end flute will usually have a key mechanism that makes almost no sound at all.

Mine barely clicks at all. I attribute that partly to the springs-- many Boehm flutes, in catalogs or otherwise, list the material the springs are made from. From experience white gold springs do have a somewhat quicker response from the keys, and make less sound upon release, but it's not that big of a difference, and has very little (if any) effect on the sound the keys make when you press them. Still, mine doesn't make much sound in its clicking, and in most cases, the clicking on most flutes isn't loud enough to hear in a performance unless you decide to really mash down on the keys-- so don't do that.

I like keyless flutes, don't get me wrong-- but on Boehms you can play Flight of the Bumblebee.

Well, technically I suppose you could do that on a keyless flute too, but it'd involve some very awkward cross-fingerings/half-holing, and I don't want to go down that road...

[Wormdiet]

i learned how to play the whistle and the irish flute left-handed and i'm just going to keep playing them left-handed. i was curious if anyone else plays irish instruments left-handed and the silver flute right-handed? not that i have a lot of brain cells to get in the way but amazingly, the rethinking the fingering isn't even a consideration. it just works.

Not exactly, but close. My first serious instrument was GHB, which I learned lefty, because both my teacher and I were more or less idiots. Whistling and fluting are both lefty for me because of the fingering similarities.

In college I had to rewire my brain to play a recorder righty and also tongue everything. But it was worth it cause I got to play the Great Bass

Klezmah can sound great on a Boehm.

[Akiba]

Coming from a classically-trained and jazz background, I have found playing ITM on my solid silver Gmnhrt flute an interesting journey. In order to get the instrument to play loudly and in tune on the lowest notes (particularly to acheive a "hard D"), I had to make sure 1) ALL pads were covering as perfectly as possible (and on a shoestring budget, i.e. I couldn't pay $400 to $500 for a fully overhaul) and have found that a player either has to pay a lot of money to flute repair expert and become very adept at making your own adjustments; 2) I bought a cheap student model Gmnhrt on ebay and took the C-foot and used that on my silver flute, first taking off the C# and C keys in order to make the low D louder and less disgustingly flat, eventually sawing off about 1.5 inches from the footjoint to the C# hole; this has in turn completely changed the character of the flute for the better by giving me a more lively sound and an excellent low D that's nearly in tune. I've also done many other things with my silver flute in order to maximize its performance and its applicability to ITM.

I write all this because: 1) you guys[gender-neutral] might be the only folks on the planet who may be able to appreciate my madness; 2) I think this may illustrate the point that BEING COMMITMED TO PLAYING BOEHM FLUTE MEANS HAVING TO ENDLESSLY MESS WITH ITS VERY COMPLEX, EXPENSIVE KEY/PAD/SPRING/SCREWS MECHANISM--therefore, if ITM is your goal/passion, I'm doubt it's worth the trouble playing Boehm, as I'm sure most of you would agree.

Being new to ITM, I have only a starter simple system wood flute--a Billy Miller Windwood D. Yet I find that playing cuts and rolls are easier in many ways and do sound better on the simple bamboo $70 flute. Playing in the ITM style is also easier in many ways. I also can echo that, having recorded myself playing "The Star above the Garter" jig on both silver and wood flutes, my tone is nearly the same on both, i.e. it is the fluter not the flute...(though I have to admit I have slightly undercut the embouchure hole of the Windwood flute to help me use my long-used embouchure on both flutes).

What has bewitched me, though, is that when I played Irish tunes on both flutes with a guitarist neighbor of mine, the way the wood flute blended and tonally interacted with the acoustic guitar stunned and satisfied me as I've never experienced with my Boehm flute. I wonder if the keys and its mechanism do block me from truly connecting with the flute and the music. I've heard such phenomena expressed by trad players and am starting to believe they are true...

I'll be upgrading my wood flute situation ASAP...I'll check the archives regarding whether an M&E polymer or blackwood (and others in that range) should be my next step. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

[peeplj]

If the low D is very flat on a Boehm-system flute, it could be a couple of different things:

-- the head cork is not positioned correctly;

-- the venting (the amount the pads stand off of the tone holes) is off and needs to be corrected;

-- the scale length of the flute is incorrect for the pitch you are playing at (for instance, forcing a very old A=435 instrument to play at A=445 by cutting off part of the headjoint)

You should not have to go to great lengths to get the low D in tune on a Boehm-system flute; certainly you don't have to cut off part of the foot joint!

The notes on the Boehm-system flute should be within just a few cents of true equal temper on the digital tuner, with the possible exception of open C-sharp and a few of the third octave notes.

--James

[jemtheflute]

I'll be upgrading my wood flute situation ASAP...I'll check the archives regarding whether an M&E polymer or blackwood (and others in that range) should be my next step. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

If you are used to Boehm, I'd suggest going to 8-key would be more sensible than key-less, provided you can get much the same quality of playability for your budget. Similarly, if you can get a decent wood flute for your budget, don't fret about caring for it as a reason to chose polymer. See my current For Sale post. No point wasting time on a keyless if you intend to get keyed at some point - it just involves more learning/un-learning/re-learning, and whilst 8-key doesn't give the chromatic facility that Boehm does, at least the semitones are accessibly there. Keyless can just be frustrating. Equally, if you want to make a point of going keyless and staying that way, keyless has its own challenges and possibilities, differences which make it potentially very satisfying to master as a separate discipline.

BTW, I largely agree with James (peeplj) regarding your Boehm low D experience. Normally on Boehm the problem with the low D if playing with an ITM approach and pushing for a "hard D" would be it going sharp, not flat! Rolling in the embouchure on a Boehm to emulate an ITM tone should flatten the whole scale pretty evenly and necessitate pushing the head further in to sharpen, just as on any other flute. It shouldn't significantly distort the temperament of the scale. If you switch to simple system, expect to have to push the D up into tune! On period flutes the low D is often built flat to allow for that - and on many modern derivatives too.

[jim stone]

If you switch to simple system, expect to have to push the D up into tune! On period flutes the low D is often built flat to allow for that - and on many modern derivatives too.

Wanting to better understand this. Is it that the 19th century
musicians were blowing especially hard on the low D?
Otherwise why tune that one note flat?

I wonder if a somewhat flat low D helps create an
in tune second octave low D, which otherwise
might be sharp?

Why are low Ds tuned flat? Not sure I really get it yet.
Maybe some people just like the sound?

[jemtheflute]

Jim, check out Terry McGee's website on "Flat Foot Syndrome". I think the reasons for it are moot - possibly partly to do with scale-length compromises to allow for tuning to widely variant pitch standards, but also chiefly to do with the need to force the tone more in order to be audible in the lower regions, in orchestral contexts at least. Remember the C19th saw general demand in musical taste for greater volume and (emotional as well as tonal) intensity, as well as greater facility in all keys, etc. etc. When you push harder for volume/intensity, you also blow sharp, and it is hard to hold the pitch down by embouchure adjustment whilst doing so, especially if you already play with a well turned-in embouchure - C19th "English School", from which ITM tone ideal is partly derived, or is at least related to: "French School" had different values, from which modern Boehm style is significantly descended, and C19th French 8-key flutes don't tend to have FFS. So, "build it a bit flat to allow for power - if you want to play pp down there, you'll have to open the embouchure" seems to have been the attitude, at least in Britain. They certainly did not intend anyone to actually play the note flat! Second octave tuning may also have been a factor - we'd need a maker's response on that.