Cross fingering chaos

Meadhbh · Post by **Meadhbh** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:23 pm

Well, now that I have gone keyless (ummm…anyone interested in an M&E 5 key

), I have been inspired to create a quick reference sheet for various cross fingerings. I have tried to sift through previous posts that addressed them, but I couldn’t find anything that combined them all. This is not to say that one does not exist. I just didn’t find one at a quick glance. If anyone could add to the list, I would greatly appreciate it! This is what I have so far (excluding half holing)…

C nat
oxx ooo
oxx xox
oxx xxo
oxo xxx
oxx oxx
oxo ooo

G#
high = xxo xox
low = xxo xxx

F nat
xxx xox

Bb
xox ooo
xox xoo
xox xxx

Eb
? Eh…? Is this one possible?

Thanks!!

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Fnat will half-hole much better on most Irish flutes than it will cross-finger.

On most flutes high Bflat is best XXO XXX (same as low G#)

On most flutes the high C# is best OXX XOO (rather than open)

You'll find that most flutes will need a different Cnat in the lower octave than in the upper.

You're right, no cross-fingering of Eflat.

Sounds like before long we'll have a traverso player made of you.

Meadhbh · Post by **Meadhbh** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:22 pm

Thanks chas!!

I'm still figuring out which fingerings work best on my flute and how they change with the octaves. I guess that was part of the reason for wanting to list them all....somewhat of a checklist of possibilities and maybe some alternate fingerings for "quick" passages. The F nat is definitely best half holed. I've been working on committing the Commodore to memory this evening and cursing the darn F nat each time. Something about that portion (not my cursing

) of the tune has also triggered my husband to start singing Aqualung all evening....or at least "Sitting on the park bench..."

Eeek!! I'm tired and starting to ramble!!

...sorry 'bout that

neilC · Post by **neilC** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:13 am

Whilst trying to find a reliable, in tune fingering for second octave c#, I found this amazing resource...

http://www.oldflutes.com/charts/simple/index.htm

so many alternatives! But it has helped - now if I want to change to sound of my unkeyed copley when I'm not playing Irish tunes, or to get a cross-fingering that is more in tune for a slower piece, I can find new fingerings! A whole new world of complexity to get into. And there was me about to buy a keyed flute

Mind you, I still can't get a reliable cross fingered first octave G#, but half holing seems to work fine - there's always that option!

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:27 am

How much “lipping” up and down of a note is appropriate for a good cross fingered note?

In other words, I can get an F nat with XXX-XOX but it requires much more embouchure work than many of the other accidentals.

chas wrote:You're right, no cross-fingering of Eflat.

In the third register you can sometimes get XXOXOX to work for Eb. It is perhaps just a novelty for most though.

Meadhbh · Post by **Meadhbh** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:56 pm

For me, if a note is 15-20 cents sharp or flat, then it is pretty easy and quick to adjust the note by lipping it. As for cross fingering an F....no matter how much I can lip it down and roll in that booger is way too sharp for me to even bother. I have found it much easier to just get used to half holing that one.

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:20 am

Meadhbh wrote:...no matter how much I can lip it down and roll in that booger

I no longer roll in or out on the note after reading this from fife and drum

Many will say “roll in” or “roll out” when referring to tuning. This is the crude way of fixing notes, but many people would seem to rather do this on occasion than fix their notes correctly and permanently, and train their ear. Rolling in or out works if everything is sharp or flat, (and tuning in the middle of a song or in a parade when the person to your left is sharp or flat) but it’s not a good idea (and impractical) for fixing individual notes.

http://www.fifedrum.org/fifer/fd/tips/b ... shtml#roll

Personally (as a hack) I found that moving the flute was slow and clumsy compared to using the embouchure and now fully agree with the above quote. I found, if you cannot do it with your lips, it is not worth doing.

Meadhbh · Post by **Meadhbh** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:00 pm

I.D.10-t wrote:
Meadhbh wrote:...no matter how much I can lip it down and roll in that booger
I no longer roll in or out on the note after reading this from fife and drum

Oh, I know that from many years of playing flute and as a music major from college. My former professor would die if he knew I had even attempted or considered such a thing as rolling in. (MAJOR "NO NO") My point was that it is just too sharp for me to lip down and by even trying the "forbidden" rolling in, I am still not able to get it to cooperate very well.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:21 pm

Meadhbh wrote: As for cross fingering an F....no matter how much I can lip it down and roll in that booger is way too sharp for me to even bother.

I read something last week that said something to the effect that in the 18th century people's ears were used to the sharp Fnat/flat F#. Our ears just aren't as flexible as they were a few generations ago. There are tunes that I play on the traverso that sound funny if I play them on a keyed flute with an "in-tune" F.

Meadhbh · Post by **Meadhbh** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:07 am

Hmmmmm....now if only I could justify my out of tune playing by telling others that I am "stretching the flexibility of their ears".

Gosh, that would make one of my largest struggles float away.

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:43 pm

Meadhbh wrote:Hmmmmm....now if only I could justify my out of tune playing by telling others that I am "stretching the flexibility of their ears".

Gosh, that would make one of my largest struggles float away.

LOL!

Btw, just translated your signature. Very nice.

Aodhan

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:29 am

chas wrote:
Meadhbh wrote: As for cross fingering an F....no matter how much I can lip it down and roll in that booger is way too sharp for me to even bother.
I read something last week that said something to the effect that in the 18th century people's ears were used to the sharp Fnat/flat F#. Our ears just aren't as flexible as they were a few generations ago. There are tunes that I play on the traverso that sound funny if I play them on a keyed flute with an "in-tune" F.

I don’t know if this is due to “Flexibility” but perhaps the differences between just intonation and equal temperament tunings.

dow · Post by **dow** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:43 am

Meadhbh wrote:...riggered my husband to start singing Aqualung all evening....or at least "Sitting on the park bench..."

Thanks! Now you've got me doing it, too.

Meadhbh · Post by **Meadhbh** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:42 am

dow wrote:
Meadhbh wrote:...triggered my husband to start singing Aqualung all evening....or at least "Sitting on the park bench..."
Thanks! Now you've got me doing it, too.

Anytime dow!

(BTW...I "trumped" his Aqualung with The Merry Girl and Up and Away....he's been humming them off and on since Monday night.

)

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:24 pm

Meadhbh wrote:
dow wrote:
Meadhbh wrote:...triggered my husband to start singing Aqualung all evening....or at least "Sitting on the park bench..."
Thanks! Now you've got me doing it, too.
Anytime dow!

(BTW...I "trumped" his Aqualung with The Merry Girl and Up and Away....he's been humming them off and on since Monday night. )

"Up, up and away, in my beautiful, my beautiful balloon..."

John