Olwell flute discussion: Round 2!!

[sturob]

Whatever. Humor's funny, is the thing: you can use humor to make a point but, well, it has to be humorous.

Stuart

[jim stone]

RS argued that we should think twice before buying a
cocus flute--because cocus is becoming extinct.

That appears innacurate. It isn't becoming extinct.

When this was pointed out there was a shift, with
some irony, to the claim that the stuff that's left,
even if it's plentiful, isn't fit for flutes.

This may well be true but it doesn't support the claim
that cocus is going extinct.

Also it isn't clear how it supports the claim that
we should think twice before buying a cocus flute.
Why not? Because there isn't much instrument
grade cocus left (although the species isn't going
extinct)? If that's so, why not make the good stuff that's
left into flutes?

[sturob]

The other thing is that RS doesn't realize how fussy I've been lately. Short fuse.

I apologize.

Stuart

[jim stone]

And I've been working too hard. Apologies.

[rama]

i'll apologize in advance...

[greenspiderweb]

It's a truism that the better one gets at doing something, the harder it gets to achieve further improvement. Ace bicycle racers buy $12,000 graphite bikes in an effort to make that last 5% improvement that might result in the shaving of a few hundredths of a second off their lap times, whereas it doesn't really matter what I ride; it's still hard to get up the hill I live on because I haven't done the training. Put me on the featherweight race yoke, and watch me make a mockery of its advantages over a normal bike!

With no offense intended to anyone, I'm fairly confident in stating that the average player isn't pushing their flute anywhere near the limit at which the differences between cocus and blackwood would become significant. Blackwood is also a very musical wood, and produces a lovely chime when tapped. Much is made of the differences between the two woods, but at the end of the day, they're more like than dislike.

As cocus wood is very nearly extinct, I'm surprised at how many people are willing to overlook that fact when choosing the wood for their new instrument. I beileve that a bit of honesty is in order, and I use the word "you" in the rhetorical sense when proposing this question, to wit: have you really done all the work to get your playing to the point where a cocus flute would provide a significant improvement in the tone you produce?

While I agree that most people don't push their flutes and their playing to the limit of eithers capacity or abilities, I don't think you need to be a pro level fluter to hear and appreciate the difference between the various woods used for flutes, so I don't agree that it is a performance issue.

There may be a slight tonal difference between woods, and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in performance when you are playing, is how I see it. It is more of a personal choice-if you hear and appreciate the difference, then that's all that really matters, aside from whether woods are endangered-if that is the case, which is an entirely different matter.

Edited to add: Though, in performance, such as a noisy session, you may be able to hear yourself a little better with Cocus-from what I understand it's a little brighter in tone.

[cocusflute]

I won't say who it is. But a year or so ago I was in the company of a flute player who also makes excellent flutes. He closed his eyes and was given one of two flutes to play- one was made with blackwood and one was made with cocus. Other than the difference in the wood they were identical. The quality of this maker's flutes is very consistent.
He was asked, over the course of about five minutes, to determine which flute was which when they were handed to him. He played each about five times. We were both very surprised that he couldn't tell the difference in the sound. He was right about half the time. This doesn't mean that there wasn't a difference. Just that he couldn't tell with marked consistency, in that bright room, on that particular day, the difference in the sound of blackwood v. cocus with those particular flutes.

[lesl]

On the other hand once when I'd been playing 3 years I tried John Skelton's cocus olwell and he my blackwood one. His had noticeably more mid-range overtones. Of course there are still plenty of variables there but the purpose was for me to hear the differences.

Happy holidays everyone!
Lesl

[jim stone]

i'll apologize in advance...

Too late!

[cocusflute]

Well, no two flutes are totally alike. The differences you heard could be caused by a minute variation in manufacture rather than differences caused by the different wood. To attribute the perceived overtones to the wood might not be accurate.
He also might be more used to getting those sounds from his flute rather than from your flute. The embouchure holes might be cut slightly differently.
Finally- Paul McGrattan (and Rockstro as well) talks about how when he used to work with Hammy they'd send six flutes off to the Cork music school. Half would go to experienced players and half to new players. When the flutes came back to Hammy the flutes played by accomplished players sounded better than the ones played by the beginners. They were in better tune!
Not that you're a beginner Lesl, but Skelton is a very accomplished player. According to McGrattan, the flutes played by accomplished players develop unexplained differences from the flutes played by beginners.
It's all anecdotal anyways, right? A good flute is a good flute regardless of design or material.

[johnkerr]

Paul McGrattan (and Rockstro as well) talks about how when he used to work with Hammy they'd send six flutes off to the Cork music school.

Rockstro used to work with Hammy? I didn't realize Hammy was that old. He's kept quite well!

According to McGrattan, the flutes played by accomplished players develop unexplained differences from the flutes played by beginners.

This could be explained simply due to the likelihood that the accomplished players spent more time actually playing the flutes than the beginners did. (Even if the beginners may have spent just as much time blowing into their instruments as the accomplished players did. Blowing into a flute does not necessarily equate to playing it.) We all know that the more a flute is played, the better it will respond. I doubt that the flute knows that the person blowing into it is Harry Bradley and not some rank beginner and calibrates its response accordingly. Although there are some days now and then when I could swear my flute has it in for me...

[cocusflute]

Padraig Rockstro did in fact work with Hammy. I should have been clearer. But I'm not apologizing. There are enough apologies in this thread.
John Kerr said:

I doubt that the flute knows that the person blowing into it is Harry Bradley and not some rank beginner...

The point that McGrattan was making is that the flutes did in fact change depending on who played them. Rockstro mentions this also. Maybe some change on the molecular level does take place.
Doubt all you want. This is an appropriate weekend to doubt, especially in light of the fact that RTE 1 is presenting "The Passion of Christ" tonight, further emphasizing that this is a black day in the country. No pints and no tunes tonight. The shops are open but the pubs are closed. There's a message there but I'm not sure what it is.
Commit commerce but don't drink?
Sorry for the topical drift. Sobriety can be disorienting.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Clearly, this is becoming an interesting discussion.

Imagine, my flute knows it's ME playing it!!!!! That's good, maybe

I shall now have a nice glass of wine in yer honor, and in honor of the day.
It's all "Good".

M

[Aodhan]

Not discounting the fact that an experienced (pro) player probably treats the flute differently as regards to care, I wonder if there is something akin to how violins play better the more you play them.

There is a theory that the varnish in a violin (Especially with Strads, nobody is totally sure how he got the sound he did) will form minute microscopic cracks from playing due to the resonance of the wood and the vibration, and it is these cracks that contribute to the "liveness" of the sound, and the uniqueness that each violin has. When a violin is not played for a long time, these cracks tend to resettle and somewhat "heal" themselves.

Obviously a wooden flute doesn't have varnish, but I'm wondering if the WAY it is played would produce different effects in the wood, i.e. a pro player would set up more harmonics and vibration in the wood, leading to different stress adaptations which produce a richer tone.

Be interesting to see a study on that done. Hey, there's an idea! Terry, I'll volunteer to be the quasi inexperienced player!

John

[lesl]

Rockstro used to work with Hammy?

John you've saved me from asking..

I doubt that the flute knows that the person blowing into it is Harry Bradley ...

Not that my flute knows Harry personally, but I think if he did, it would. At the time of my comparison with Monsieur Skelton, my flute was only 2 yrs old and I was 3. The year before I'd passed it around to every famous and/or great flute player I could find, hoping they would blow some extra good luck into it.. , you know, 'this is my new flute would you try it for me please' .. and uh, ..
oh no I'm not superstitious..

Say, how did this get called 'Lesl and Skelton'? It should be *Cat* and Skelton!