Like so many others on this board I have come to the flute through clarinet and whistle and each instrument had strong points and weak points. I got used to playing triplets sharply, cleanly, and quickly, tonguing each note. The flute, on the other hand, seems to be much different in the way you have to deal with triplets (I read all the discussion on tonguing that went on not long ago).
Take for example Cooley’s in the B part where on a whistle you can get very quick and sharp triplets and they sound great. On the flute I can’t even begin to approach that. What should I do there?
How about the Concertina Reel in the B part, again on a whistle you can fly through the triplets but on the flute I treat it by playing DC#D instead of DDD. Is that an acceptable way to treat that passage? If not, what?
I have only been playing the flute for five months so I know that my world right now with all its problems of tone and breathing will change over time but right now triplets are just bugging me, so any ideas would be great!!
Oh, by the way, I have got to thank Loren over and over for giving me the keys to the second octave…the one handed scale. The results are simple unbelievable!!!! Thanks Loren!
Jim
Triplets anyone?
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RudallRose
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Cathy Wilde
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Aha, welcome to the "ornamentation as articulation" party! As my teacher explained it to me, the goal is to sound a little less busy than one does on the whistle; more flowing and pretty as opposed to feisty and perky. Of course, you can also play pretty on the whistle, too, I hope that goes without saying. But some view just tonguing the triplets as a little bit of cheating on either instrument (not to mention a pretty surefire way to sound authentically un-Irish unless you know what you're doing), so it's good to get your rolls going.
To expand on what David said (I hope I don't screw this up), Cooley's might be ....
gf|eB (3B[A]B[c]B)
with the little [bracketed] notes there indicating a cut and a tap.
I think on that tune I often play a long or "lazy" roll there, cutting in front of the first B as well .... so mine actually comes out
gf| e[c#]B[a]B[c#]B
Another option is to just play a BAB triplet, so it would go ...
gf |eB (3BAB) gBfB| eB (3BAB) gedB | (3ABA) FA DAFA|
Finally, you could make it even simpler while you work on your rolls, etc. and play:
gf|eBAB gBAB|eBfB gedB|FAAF D2FA|DAFA defd| (cutting between those two As, of course!!!) or some such.
D's are a little squidgier because there's technically not much of a tap for a D. I play it a bunch of different ways, some more successful than others (and at various times, so I never can figure out what's best!), but for where you are now a two-handed roll might be easiest ... play the d[e]d cut using the the LH ring finger for the e; then play the [c#]d or tap segment using your RH index finger, just NOTE-blip-NOTE-blip-NOTE. (Obviously, you're not REALLY getting a c# with that fingering, but since what you're truly after is a separator between the two D's, it's not that big a deal) Other times I cut and tap with just my RH index and middle fingers (if going fast) or my LH middle and ring fingers. But it just sort of depends ... it's always an adventure!
Meanwhile, DC#D is a perfectly acceptible workaround for that part on the Concertina B part; I've heard many play it that way, often as a nice break/variation from D cranns -- sort of like an after-dinner mint. The idea here is to make it sound easy, so .... better to have a nice flowing workaround than some jarring unrhythmic bog that waves its arms and says "HELP! I'M A MESS!" in the middle of your tune!
I don't know whether that helps or not. But I found that starting with the longer 1 or 1+ beat rolls made life easier when I got to the 1/2 beat or "quickie triplet" rolls.
Forgive the weird terminology; like everything else it's the bizarre kind of junk I come up with when left to my own devices too long!
Good luck, take your time, and no triple-tonguing for you!!!!!!
To expand on what David said (I hope I don't screw this up), Cooley's might be ....
gf|eB (3B[A]B[c]B)
with the little [bracketed] notes there indicating a cut and a tap.
I think on that tune I often play a long or "lazy" roll there, cutting in front of the first B as well .... so mine actually comes out
gf| e[c#]B[a]B[c#]B
Another option is to just play a BAB triplet, so it would go ...
gf |eB (3BAB) gBfB| eB (3BAB) gedB | (3ABA) FA DAFA|
Finally, you could make it even simpler while you work on your rolls, etc. and play:
gf|eBAB gBAB|eBfB gedB|FAAF D2FA|DAFA defd| (cutting between those two As, of course!!!) or some such.
D's are a little squidgier because there's technically not much of a tap for a D. I play it a bunch of different ways, some more successful than others (and at various times, so I never can figure out what's best!), but for where you are now a two-handed roll might be easiest ... play the d[e]d cut using the the LH ring finger for the e; then play the [c#]d or tap segment using your RH index finger, just NOTE-blip-NOTE-blip-NOTE. (Obviously, you're not REALLY getting a c# with that fingering, but since what you're truly after is a separator between the two D's, it's not that big a deal) Other times I cut and tap with just my RH index and middle fingers (if going fast) or my LH middle and ring fingers. But it just sort of depends ... it's always an adventure!
Meanwhile, DC#D is a perfectly acceptible workaround for that part on the Concertina B part; I've heard many play it that way, often as a nice break/variation from D cranns -- sort of like an after-dinner mint. The idea here is to make it sound easy, so .... better to have a nice flowing workaround than some jarring unrhythmic bog that waves its arms and says "HELP! I'M A MESS!" in the middle of your tune!
I don't know whether that helps or not. But I found that starting with the longer 1 or 1+ beat rolls made life easier when I got to the 1/2 beat or "quickie triplet" rolls.
Forgive the weird terminology; like everything else it's the bizarre kind of junk I come up with when left to my own devices too long!
Good luck, take your time, and no triple-tonguing for you!!!!!!
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
Triplets anuone
Hi Cathy,
That is just what I needed, the notation. I think that for now I need to keep it really simple because there is such a temptation to try and sound like all those guys and girls on the WFO CDs that I spend so much time listening to. I’ll try all the variations you show but in the end I will probably squeak by with the simplest of your variations. Thanks.
Jim
That is just what I needed, the notation. I think that for now I need to keep it really simple because there is such a temptation to try and sound like all those guys and girls on the WFO CDs that I spend so much time listening to. I’ll try all the variations you show but in the end I will probably squeak by with the simplest of your variations. Thanks.
Jim
What about the Kevin Crawford type triplet?
I think everyone knows what I'm talking about... yes?
The reall hard/crisp ones he does. First tune on that "D" album... George White's... bunch of them in there.
It doesn't sound like its a cut/tap type of action (well to me anyway) ... sounds like a gutteral thing? Or no?
I'm sure this question must come up from time.
I think everyone knows what I'm talking about... yes?
The reall hard/crisp ones he does. First tune on that "D" album... George White's... bunch of them in there.
It doesn't sound like its a cut/tap type of action (well to me anyway) ... sounds like a gutteral thing? Or no?
I'm sure this question must come up from time.
Aanvil
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I am not an expert
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I am not an expert
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RudallRose
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Dear Chiffed
Quite obviously they are different.
And I can completely assure you I know the difference....and can play them. I am not confused.
But our writer asked what to do in the place of difficult-to-play triplets and I offered a properly-executed roll as a solution.
Now, if you'd like me to get into the diction requiments for the variety of triplets faced (whether on beat, off beat, or cross beat) on the different keyed flutes, I'd be happy to.
If you'd like me to submit an mp3 illustrating all these, I can.
Nevertheless, perhaps we can assist seamasL....
likely the best method on a D wood flute for triplets, though choices vary, would be the soft "d" sound generated in the phrase: de-ge-de
The "t" sounds better off the whistle and articulates well, but the flute is a smoother, creamier rhythm. I don't like the doo-goo-doo phrase, or the the "tootle-too" that the very old (aka Druet of Nicholson's time) proffered.
practiced, you ought to be able to do de-ge-de (actually, I say di-gi-di and the "i" is the soft vowel sound, but I speak Spanish, too, and many people have a problem getting that proper sound, so I use the "e" instead)....at a reasonably good speed.
then try "yu-ga-da" where the "u" is soft vowel....and with pressure it's a nice triplet with the wonderful flute "yelp" at the beginning.
There.....
I hope that helps.
dm
Quite obviously they are different.
And I can completely assure you I know the difference....and can play them. I am not confused.
But our writer asked what to do in the place of difficult-to-play triplets and I offered a properly-executed roll as a solution.
Now, if you'd like me to get into the diction requiments for the variety of triplets faced (whether on beat, off beat, or cross beat) on the different keyed flutes, I'd be happy to.
If you'd like me to submit an mp3 illustrating all these, I can.
Nevertheless, perhaps we can assist seamasL....
likely the best method on a D wood flute for triplets, though choices vary, would be the soft "d" sound generated in the phrase: de-ge-de
The "t" sounds better off the whistle and articulates well, but the flute is a smoother, creamier rhythm. I don't like the doo-goo-doo phrase, or the the "tootle-too" that the very old (aka Druet of Nicholson's time) proffered.
practiced, you ought to be able to do de-ge-de (actually, I say di-gi-di and the "i" is the soft vowel sound, but I speak Spanish, too, and many people have a problem getting that proper sound, so I use the "e" instead)....at a reasonably good speed.
then try "yu-ga-da" where the "u" is soft vowel....and with pressure it's a nice triplet with the wonderful flute "yelp" at the beginning.
There.....
I hope that helps.
dm
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johnkerr
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Kevin is tonguing there. But don't tell anyone...Aanvil wrote:What about the Kevin Crawford type triplet?
I think everyone knows what I'm talking about... yes?
The reall hard/crisp ones he does. First tune on that "D" album... George White's... bunch of them in there.
It doesn't sound like its a cut/tap type of action (well to me anyway) ... sounds like a gutteral thing? Or no?
I'm sure this question must come up from time.
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Chiffed
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Sorry, David. Just me being silly and glib. I get a little fustergated by most attempts to notate inflection, articulation, and ornamentation in melody. Be it ITM, jazz, or klezmer, inflection etc. can be over 'mathematized' to my utter consternation.David Migoya wrote:Dear Chiffed
Quite obviously they are different.
And I can completely assure you I know the difference....and can play them. I am not confused.
But our writer asked what to do in the place of difficult-to-play triplets and I offered a properly-executed roll as a solution.
Now, if you'd like me to get into the diction requiments for the variety of triplets faced (whether on beat, off beat, or cross beat) on the different keyed flutes, I'd be happy to.
If you'd like me to submit an mp3 illustrating all these, I can.
dm
Posts like yours and Cathy's do help. Thanks.
Bryce
Happily tooting when my dogs let me.
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rama
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from what i can tell, there's virtually no tongueing in kevin's recording of 'george white's favorite'. not to say he does not on occasion throw in a stacatto triplet (by way of a quick flutter of the tongue/glottal stop combo) in some of his tunes like in opening bars of 'flowers of brooklyn'; or somewhere in 'gorman's reel' and 'fisherman's farewell' for example...johnkerr wrote:Kevin is tonguing there. But don't tell anyone...Aanvil wrote:What about the Kevin Crawford type triplet?
I think everyone knows what I'm talking about... yes?
The reall hard/crisp ones he does. First tune on that "D" album... George White's... bunch of them in there.
It doesn't sound like its a cut/tap type of action (well to me anyway) ... sounds like a gutteral thing? Or no?
I'm sure this question must come up from time.
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bradhurley
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As a general rule, unless you're Brian Finnegan (or Kevin Crawford, although he does this a lot less often than he used to), it's very rare for Irish flute players to do a triplet on a single note. It comes up occasionally in a few hornpipes, such as Dwyer's hornpipe or O'Donnell's hornpipe, for example, but as I said it's rare.
In the two specific instances you mentioned (the B part of Cooley's and the B part of the Concertina Reel), I'd approach these differently.
For the "triplet" on d near the beginning of the B part of the Concertina Reel, I'd use a simple cran on the d. The sequence of notes in that first part of the B part is A-d-[cran on d] in a rhythm that sounds like DUM-dah-DIDDLY (the crann being the "diddly.")
For the B part of Cooley's I'd do a short roll on the B. The rhythm is exactly the same as what I described above, but the "diddly" in this case is a short roll -- you start with the cut, then the note, then the tap, then back to the note.
So this passage would be g-f-e-B-[short roll on B]
The fingering for this entire passage, including the short roll, would be:
xxx ooo (g)
xxx xoo (f)
xxx xxo (e)
xoo ooo (B)
ooo ooo (c# cut for the beginning of the short roll)
xoo ooo (B)
xxo ooo (A, the tap of the short roll)
xoo ooo (B)
If you do that in the "DUM-dah-DIDDLY" rhythm, where "DUM" is the e, "dah" is the first B, and "DIDDLY" is the entire short roll starting with the cut on c# and finishing back on the B, you'll have it.
In the two specific instances you mentioned (the B part of Cooley's and the B part of the Concertina Reel), I'd approach these differently.
For the "triplet" on d near the beginning of the B part of the Concertina Reel, I'd use a simple cran on the d. The sequence of notes in that first part of the B part is A-d-[cran on d] in a rhythm that sounds like DUM-dah-DIDDLY (the crann being the "diddly.")
For the B part of Cooley's I'd do a short roll on the B. The rhythm is exactly the same as what I described above, but the "diddly" in this case is a short roll -- you start with the cut, then the note, then the tap, then back to the note.
So this passage would be g-f-e-B-[short roll on B]
The fingering for this entire passage, including the short roll, would be:
xxx ooo (g)
xxx xoo (f)
xxx xxo (e)
xoo ooo (B)
ooo ooo (c# cut for the beginning of the short roll)
xoo ooo (B)
xxo ooo (A, the tap of the short roll)
xoo ooo (B)
If you do that in the "DUM-dah-DIDDLY" rhythm, where "DUM" is the e, "dah" is the first B, and "DIDDLY" is the entire short roll starting with the cut on c# and finishing back on the B, you'll have it.
Triplets Anyone
WOW, what a wonderful response!! 
Thanks everyone!
Jim
Thanks everyone!Jim
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RudallRose
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m31
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Just shows how music is primarily an aural tradition and that any notation is merely approxmative or symbolic of the actual sound. Kind of like written and spoken languages, especially the tonally-based ones. We should learn Chinese. Say 'Hello" in Mandarin: Nǐ hǎo. If you're uttering a monotone "knee-how", you're not saying it right.Chiffed wrote:... I get a little fustergated by most attempts to notate inflection, articulation, and ornamentation in melody. Be it ITM, jazz, or klezmer, inflection etc. can be over 'mathematized' to my utter consternation.
http://www.chinese-tools.com/jdd/public ... /01-01.mp3
Actually we need not look that far; I'm teaching my young kids to read and I'm frequently reminded of how often times English words sound nothing like they read.
Now I know you know, and we all know this... so why be flummoxed?