A Mystery Solved

[bradhurley]

Contrary to logic, I've long found that my flute's joints tend to become looser in summer than in winter, requiring me to add thread to them. I talked with my flutemaker (Bryan Byrne) about this, and it mystified him as well because you would expect wood to contract in the dry climate of winter in this part of the world, and swell in the more humid summer. You would expect joints to get loose only in winter. The only explanation he could think of was compaction of the threads.

In fact, it turns out that compaction is indeed the culprit, and it it's related to what Terry McGee has referred to as the "summer school effect." I haven't been playing flute as much as usual this year for various reasons, but I did go to the Catskills Irish Arts week for several days in mid-July, and put my flute through a few all-night sessions as well as a lot of playing during the day. All the joints were tight and the flute sounded great. I was busy last week so didn't get a chance to play at all. I went to a session last night and when I put the flute together all the joints were so loose that the foot joint started to fall off while I was playing!

Clearly compression is the issue here: in the Catskills everything got very tight because I was playing so much. The pressure compressed the threads. Then, when I didn't play for a week, the moisture that had swelled the threads and the wood gradually dissipated, while the threads remained compressed.

Has anyone else noticed this effect?

[Jack Bradshaw]

Yes.....I sometimes use the teflon tape as a temporary "thickener".....stretched out thin of course...

Its one argument for cork which seems to suffer less.

Where were you at E Durham ?

[Loren]

Has anyone else noticed this effect?

Yup. This is just one of the reasons I can't stand thread lapped tenons, and convert all my thread lapped flutes to cork, asap.


Loren

[bradhurley]

Where were you at E Durham ?

I kept myself well hidden! I don't like the big sessions and I wasn't taking any classes, just hanging out with friends, working on tunes I wanted to learn, swimming in the creeks, etc. I was there from Wednesday through Saturday.

As for cork versus thread, the only problem with cork is that you can't easily emove a layer in a session if things start getting too tight! (yeah I know, there's this stuff called sandpaper, but still...) Thread can be more of a pain, but I like having that level of adjustability. I've had flutes with cork and much prefer threads. To each his own...

[Jon C.]

Where were you at E Durham ?

I kept myself well hidden! I don't like the big sessions and I wasn't taking any classes, just hanging out with friends, working on tunes I wanted to learn, swimming in the creeks, etc. I was there from Wednesday through Saturday.

As for cork versus thread, the only problem with cork is that you can't easily emove a layer in a session if things start getting too tight! (yeah I know, there's this stuff called sandpaper, but still...) Thread can be more of a pain, but I like having that level of adjustability. I've had flutes with cork and much prefer threads. To each his own...

I used to only like cork, but for the antique flutes the thread serves another purpose then sealing the joint, it also reinforces the tenon, similar to thread wraping on bamboo flutes. Nothing like a nice silk wraped tenon!
I think the compression you are refering to is the wood cells shrinking when they dry out. If you keep the flute humidified when not playing this would also help the tenons stay tight.

[cocusflute]

Air-conditioning can also have a dramatic effect on a flute. Coming into an air-conditioned room can be much drier than the flute is used to.

[bradhurley]

Just to clarify, I keep my flutes stored in a humidified box whenver I'm not playing them, so that's not an issue. And while it's true that the pub I played in last night had the air conditioning blasting away, the flute is still a bit loose today here at home in 68 percent ambient humidity. So I do think it's compression of the thread that's at the root of the looseness.

[johnkerr]

Where were you at E Durham ?

I kept myself well hidden!

Not well enough, though, Brad. After all, I managed to find you a couple of times during the week, even once when you were engaged in the act of flute playing. You'll have to try harder next year.

The best way to remain hidden at such events is to do as I did a few years ago at the Ennis Trad Festival. Several friends of mine from home were there that year, and they got to talking with someone in one of the shops. When he heard that they were from Washington, he mentioned that there had been another fellow in recently who was also from Washington. They mentioned my name (or described me, I forget which) and your man said "Ah yes, that's him." So they spent the rest of their time in Ennis looking for me, and never did find me. Why? Because I wasn't there at all! I was sitting at home while some other guy was cruising around (maybe even at Cruise's) having all the fun I should have been having...

[AaronMalcomb]

I was sitting at home while some other guy was cruising around (maybe even at Cruise's) having all the fun I should have been having...

Doppelgänger!

[GaryKelly]

Contrary to logic, I've long found that my flute's joints tend to become looser in summer than in winter, requiring me to add thread to them. I talked with my flutemaker (Bryan Byrne) about this, and it mystified him as well because you would expect wood to contract in the dry climate of winter in this part of the world, and swell in the more humid summer. You would expect joints to get loose only in winter. The only explanation he could think of was compaction of the threads.

I don't think it's contrary to logic at all, and would expect joints to be looser in warmer seasons than in colder ones. If you have a nut stuck to a bolt, you apply heat... the nut expands more than the bolt (it has a larger diameter) and can then be removed more easily. Same prinicipal with any material that has a positive coefficient of thermal expansion. With the flute, as temperature rises, the socket will expand more than the tenon, hence a looser fit.

I can't stand thread lapping, and much prefer cork. Cork is wood, and reacts to changes in humidity the same as other woods. Cotton, silk, or synthetics like teflon tape and dental floss don't do that; if a tenon expands, it's under pressure from the wrappings, if it contracts, the wrappings become loose and collapse when you assemble the flute. I think it's why cork lapped joints were invented back in 18-something-ish.

[Leel]

I was sitting at home while some other guy was cruising around (maybe even at Cruise's) having all the fun I should have been having...

Doppelgänger!

[lixnaw]

I've been ill for 3 weeks and i only just started playing again. I stored my flute in a humidified box for 3 weeks, when i took her out again, the cork tenons were so swolen, i couldn't put the flute together. I used to play at least an hour and a half each day. I think i've over humidified. But i don't understand why Brad has quite a different story...

Edit: I just played for half an hour and all the condensation inside the flute was in the lined head, not a trace on the wood. Does it need oiling?

[Nanohedron]

I've been ill for 3 weeks and i only just started playing again. I stored my flute in a humidified box for 3 weeks, when i took her out again, the cork tenons were so swolen, i couldn't put the flute together. I used to play at least an hour and a half each day. I think i've over humidified. But i don't understand why Brad has quite a different story...

Edit: I just played for half an hour and all the condensation inside the flute was in the lined head, not a trace on the wood. Does it need oiling?

Not necessarily. Your condensation might be hardly forming at all. Surrounding heat and humidity can do this. Some days when the combo is just right, I can play for hours and not a drop will form in the head.

[Cathy Wilde]

Brad, if East Durham was anything like it was last year, I would bet the RH was higher than 68; when I was there it seemed as high as 75% and the trees were dripping at night. Combined with the heat .... And to further reinforce this theory, remember the mildew!?

FWIW, Augusta seemed about the same -- great weather if you happened to be a wooden flute or some kind of plant; not so much if you were a fiddle or a bow.

Anyway, I'm expecting rattly joints for a bit now that I'm home, but I've got the Teflon tape handy.

[Loren]

Anyway, I'm expecting rattly joints for a bit now that I'm home, but I've got the Teflon tape handy.

Damn, I guess I should have tried that stuff on my knees years ago, I didn't know it was good for rattly joints!


Loren