Wish I could play like Mike... In his defense.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:56 am

Don't worry, Wombat. I'm used to that rather shallow and desparate accusation. If you display a bit of knowledge about enduring styles and question what seems like a feed fest on 'the well' were people are equal parts quaffing from it and pissing in it then you do tend to rattle little cages.

It's simply not 'all good' if you treat the musical traditions as an enduring art form and with all the respect that they deserve. I know the people from whom Flatley got his music personally, and I know the spirit in which he was helped with it so I do have reasons for feeling involved. When South Sligo flute music and pop music 'sensibilities' collide there will always be friction. As you can hear (I hope), the South Sligo flute portion of the equation isn't holding up the best at all. That needs to be recognised and discussed (and condemned if you are so inclined) otherwise we really are groping in the darkness. Flatley can and will do what he wants of course, and I can like it or lump it or tactically ignore it (reserving the right to trash it when it is just pulp). Such is the nature of the inclusive tradition: accepting others while never buying into anything 100 per cent (some would like to dictate likewise though as we know) and never getting too carried away with yourself... ("And Then Came Who?")

There is not enough critical commentary on ITM of course. Not enough good, informed and passionate commentary that is. In any other style of music crap like what was posted would be listened to, identified and soundly exposed as exactly what it is in some respected, quality publication. Where is Brendan Breathnach when you need him?

Regards,

Harry.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:27 am

Beautiful, Harry!

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:25 am

Oh my God I'm going to defend Flatley... I can't believe I'm going to do this.
ITM folks are not who this stuff is aimed at. It's aimed at his LOTD/ Riverdance audience IE middle of the road undemanding folk. They wouldn't get a pure trad CD. It's Trad lite, they will lap it up and it will make him a shed load of money no doubt. I expect his garden has quite a row of sheds by now.
Well -shudder- that's over with.
Rob

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:43 am

treeshark,

You can look at the practicalities of the buisness side (as you just have), or you can look at it from a musican's artistic point of view or some mixture of the two.

You are defending MF's right to make money. No problem, until that is when he starts making a balls of his talents and possibly, by extension, a very rich but fairly precariously placed strand of tradition that was never denied him.

I think a fairly severe imbalance which favours the 'practical' point of view is evident in the said piece, and popular Irish music in general.

Regards,

Harry.

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:21 am

Harry, I agree he prostitutes his art for money, but from my dealings with him he is so vainglorious that any fine feelings for tradition would I suspect pass him by. People who have become famous are like heroin addicts they get desperate for a fix, hence these sad celebrity programs. I don't think Flatley is any threat to any traditions though, they are far tougher than that!! Of his own talents however, I agree, what a sad sad waste of ability and learning. Still his own audience loves what he does and who am I to scorn their pleasure!
Rob

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:23 am

Well, that's a comfortable place to be in.

I'm afraid what tantalises the masses by design generally sticks in my craw. From cynical, dressed up, dumbed down, 'de-souled' musical traditions to the ever more worrying fixation on humiliating people for entertainment... reality TV? We make our own reality, and what sort of reality will that promote? Or is it a reflection of the sorry state of a 'reality' that exists?

I'm afraid that I'm too close to many musicians (living and dead) of comparatively great *integrity*. It counts for too much in what I think makes music great to sqander it for a cheap kick. Such is life, viva le diffrance etc...

Regards,

Harry.

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:58 am

Harry
I understand and at heart agree, I find mass culture a pretty depressing place, but there are always good new things coming up and good old ones being re-made. I think what saddens me most is knowing people who carry on their art or trade lifelong with the highest ideals only to be ignored and in the end doubtless soon forgot. But so it always was.
On the bright side I think trad music is in a pretty dynamic and healthy state, there's stuff to make you wince, sure enough, but there's plenty to brighten your day as well! Flatley and his ilk are, thank heavens, only ephemera.
Rob

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:16 pm

Nicely stated thoughts, Harry.

I recall a fellow that occasionally used to come into the C&F chatroom long ago. His nickname was Stoneycup. I was fairly new to this music then and his comments gave me a much needed perspective on the tradition that have stood me in good stead. We need more like him... and like you.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:21 pm

I'm entirely with Harry on this one.

For my part, I don't mind evolution, or music that's experimental, or music that's a creative blend of more than one style, so long as it is done for artistic reasons and with a creative purpose in mind. I don't mind if an experiment is a creative failure—probably most are. But cheap dumbing down and wasting talent, by people who don't even need the money? I just don't get it. He wants the limelight, eh? Wouldn't the respect of several musicans who've sweated blood to preserve the tradition be worth more than the adulation of a few thousand tone-deaf pseudo celts. It certainly would to me.

In a sense, of course, the tone-deaf pseudo celts deserve to be entertained and people can't be blamed for providing them with their fantasy fodder. But Kenny G could make a celtic album that would do that job just as well and no talent would be wasted. And if MF wants to provide it instead, well that's the modern world isn't it? Well yes, but we have a right to critical bluntness and, as Harry correctly points out, in other genres, that's exactly what a sell out would get.

My guess is that if this album gets reviewed in magazines like Roots and Rhythm or even Mojo or Uncut it will be panned as a boring sell-out. The reviewer probably won't be an expert on ITM. But he or she will know the signs of tasteless compromise—that language is pretty universal now.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:42 pm

Wombat wrote:But Kenny G could make a celtic album that would do that job just as well and no talent would be wasted.

That's another example: wasn't too bad of a jazz player, but decided to prostitute himself playing this insufferably sirupy stuff that's usually out of tune anyway. I'm sure he cried all the way to the bank.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:07 pm

David Migoya wrote: (edit) Frankie is a terrific professional who pays incredible attention to tone on the flute. He's very much into airs now, as well as researching the sources and history of what he's playing.
If you've never seen him in person, he is truly a great entertainer who will have you laughing so hard you pee in your pants. A wonderful man for sure.
dm

You know, it's funny -- I saw Frankie play (fiddle) with Paddy Keenan and another fellow last spring, and what a ball! And wow, talk about chops. But it was odd -- the whole time I was heartily nodding & tapping along, I also found myself feeling a bit uncomfortable; feeling that some of his little whiz-bang flourishes, etc. were on the the outer edge of my idea of good trad taste. Thus, David, I think your use of the word "entertainer" is a good choice -- I think I felt the idea of being "entertained" was what collided with my more austere notion that this music was more simple in line.

(However, who can fault virtuosity, the fruits of hard work, and having fun with one's music? Certainly not this lame-o!)

BUT ANYWAY, now I need to make amends. After seeing him, I admit I had taste questions. But after listening to "Fierce Traditional" these last two weeks and enjoying the heck out of it, I realize I WUZ WRONG. He's got his own style, he makes ONE or TWO decisions about performance that maybe aren't quite what I'd jump on (but what do I know?), the album is highly polished on the production end, but hot dang. It's really good stuff and satisfies my basic criteria for great playing ....

1) I can always find the tune in there
2) Better yet, I can't NOT listen to the tune let alone tap my foot, dance around, or otherwise get involved with it because he plays with so much life and lift
3) Most of all, he HONORS the tune, which is really all a player of any level can hope for, I think

So. Not that he's reading this, but .....

Frankie, I'm sorry I was an ignorant yahoo who made an uninformed opinion of you. Please forgive me, I'm glad I got to hear more of your playing and thus change my outlook (even though it sucks being wrong).

Can't quite do the same for Mr. Flatley yet, but uh, ya never know.

And P.S. "Slievenamon" (flute air on "Fierce Traditional") absolutely kills.

cat.

kkrell · Post by **kkrell** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:24 pm

And if Frankie IS reading this, I'm still hopeful of a track for a "Wooden Flute Obsession" volume.

Kevin Krell

djm · Post by **djm** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:48 pm

I think it is a trap to try and make excuses for someone who is very capable, experienced and talented when they produce some very abysmal tripe. Whether Elvis or Flatley, can't we just face up to the possiblity that, given their own druthers, these people may have attrociously bad taste? When someone has all the money and fame in the world that they can produce any kind of album of music they choose (or decorate a mansion) and they go out by choice and produce tawdry drivel, why not just accept that these people may have terrible taste and leave it at that?

djm

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:24 am

I've just recently taken to sticking glittery bands round my flute and dressing in sequined, metal studded leather to play, I have to say there has been a definite improvement in tone, it maybe that the Bontempi organ set to salsa no 11 is confusing matters though ... oh and my friends won't visit me anymore...

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:30 am

Very much my point djm, or at least one of them. Elvis lovers just admit that the man had (sometimes) appalling taste and displayed it in public and was (sometimes) an embarrassment. The evidence is out there on records and DVDs.

Now, and I am not kidding, someone released an LP of some of Elvis's lamest offerings and called it Elvis's Greatest sh*t. Only a real fan could listen to that one and would buy it, but you would do so because it is funny, not because it is good. Amongst informed fans, even the biggest have no illusions.