A recorder with a flute embouchure?

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David Cooper
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Tell us something.: I'm about to have a go at making wooden flutes based on a quena - I want to experiment with changing the hole sizes and locations to make one that's more comfortable to play. I just received an auger through the post today, and there are blown-down trees in the garden waiting to be repurposed, so I'll try to make a start on my first prototype at the weekend.

Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by David Cooper »

paddler wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:27 pm Nice video David!
Thanks - I need to do more where I play the instrument properly because it may have more potential yet than it initially seemed. I'm getting all the notes but the lowest to sound nice sometimes, but it's uncomfortable and I've only just realised part of the reason it may be so awkward: I need to try filing off the spikes to either side of the window to make them perpendicular to the part pressed against my lower lip because they're likely inhibiting the movement of the upper lip.
For what it's worth, here are a couple of thoughts I have on this. First, I think the fundamental approach is very much worthwhile. But I think you need to be careful about a couple of small details. One is the angle at which you cut off the top of the tube. Most whistles and recorders terminate the upper end of the bore perpendicular to the axis of the bore. When you cut off the top at an angle and then seal the end with your chin or lower lip, as with a quena, you are slightly modifying the bore length at the head, by losing a bit of bore volume under the window. This might affect things. I'd tend to try to account for this loss by very slightly (proportionately) extending the head bore length, so that the end can still be cut at an angle (which is necessary for ergonomic reasons).
It does indeed affect things, making the instrument play slightly sharp, but that can be countered using the tuning slide. I'll shape the ramp like on a conventional quena with the next prototype. Interestingly though, when I add a fipple to one of my quenillas or to that modified recorder, it works horizontally regardless of the ramp angles, which is not the case when blowing it with my lips. The jet of air from the windway must just be so much more regular, which is also why whistles create such sweet, pure notes without the same "flute" character.

"Second, the air flow that leaves your lip embouchure when playing a quena, or any embouchure flute, is not really the same shape as the flow leaving a rectangular recorder or whistle windway. For optimal tone, you need to really match the shape of the labium edge to the shape of the air flow. The U-shaped labium in a quena is probably not shaped that way by accident! One of the most critical, and finicky aspects of flute making is the embouchure cut, where the minutest details can make the difference between a great sounding flute and a mediocre or poor one.[/quote]

There are quenas with an "escotadura recta" - straight edge to the ramp instead of the usual curve, but they have a reputation for being a bit harder to play. My quenilla whistle adapters though are producing beautiful notes with standard curved shape, and I wonder if that may actually be optimal. If you think about it, the air blown through the middle of the windway should be fastest as it's slowed more to either side by the side walls, so the edge you're aiming at maybe should be shaped to take that into account. It may be that they're normally cut straight here because of the tools that are traditionally made to make them, and the fact that our tradition is to make flutes with a hole on the top rather than having them end-blown, while the ones with wedge shaped ramps, whistles and recorders, are likely done with chisels rather than round files to get a shape the lines up nicely with the windway along the full legth. When you use a chisel for two slopes that meet each other, you get a straight edge. When you use a round file, you get a curved edge. I don't know how they shaped their quenas before European tools arrived though - most likely filing with rounded edges of flatish stones.
On the bore profile, I would avoid messing with the body bore profile at the foot, or anywhere else, at least initially. The bore profile and tone hole lattice all work together to enable the tuning of the notes over the full range, including the cross fingered notes and the ones that use higher harmonics. If you mess with the bore profile you throw all this off. It would probably be easy enough to get the low octave notes to work, for example, with a simple cylindrical bore. But if you want to preserve the chromaticity across the full range, then the bore profile and tone hole lattice details really matter, right down to the finest details.
Yes, that could be a big problem. With any luck though, I might turn out to be wrong about the poor quality of the lowest notes. I've got pretty good quality out of all but the the lowest note now, though it's really poor. Maybe the fact there are two small holes there instead of one big one is the cause of the problem, or the huge slot underneath it that could be disrupting the air flow, and that's only there to let you rotate it to the most comfortable angle for the length of your little finger. That could be fixed.
I do agree that these higher pitched recorders and whistles are harder to play with an embouchure-style head than a lower pitched instrument would be. The reason is the smaller size of the embouchure hole, which has to match the small bore, and the very tight embouchure required from the player, which is very strenuous on the embouchure muscles. Playing a piccolo is much more "heavy lifting" for the embouchure than playing a flute, for example. So, I think your approach would naturally yield much better results when applied to a lower pitched instrument than say a high C or D instrument. Something like a low F might be an easier target.
I would have used my treble recorder if I could find it, but I haven't seen it for about 20 years. I really don't like recorder fingering, so I switched over to whistles and quenas and only have a few pieces that I prefer to play on a descant recorder.
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David Cooper
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Tell us something.: I'm about to have a go at making wooden flutes based on a quena - I want to experiment with changing the hole sizes and locations to make one that's more comfortable to play. I just received an auger through the post today, and there are blown-down trees in the garden waiting to be repurposed, so I'll try to make a start on my first prototype at the weekend.

Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by David Cooper »

I've made a new quena-head for the recorder, and this time cut a quena notch into it so that it can be blown in the standard way. The resulting recorder flute plays well this time, and it sounds very recorder-like indeed. I'll make a new video about it soon. Before making this new part, I did further work on the previous one and managed to get good sound out of all notes other than C. With the new one though, even C sounds good, so it's a much more viable instrument than I thought. I'll have to do an outer mould to do the job properly (for aesthetics reasons), and I'll embed magnets in the end for fitting windway attachments so that it can be played quietly in recorder mode.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by RudallRose »

What you seek is a Giorgi flute.
https://vmcollectables.com/product/giorgi-flute/

They're a little strange in scaling, but the idea is solid. The mouthpiece -- basically a flute mouthpiece on a vertical flute -- works pretty well.
You need long fingers, though, to cover the left-hand C# hole. Giorgi fixed that years later with the addition of a key, but then that led to more keys and pretty much negated the 11-hole keyless concept.

I'm working with a flutemaker at the moment to design a retrofit Giorgi headpiece that will work on a regular 8key flute. The idea is for when the left wrist is so bothersome you can't play traversely. This would solve that. Will let you know whenever progress is beyond prototypes. Stay tuned.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Terry McGee »

Hmmm. I've played an original Giorgi, and have since tried to mock up an example out of electrical conduit, and I reckon the idea is fatally flawed. I think there's something dodgy about trying to blow directly against the returning reflected wave, but I'll be delighted to be proven wrong!

For those not familiar with the Giorgi, here's a great article by Rick Wilson: http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/giorgi.htm

And you can see Giorgi's Patent Application here: https://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Giorgi-flute-patent.htm

But I also agree we desperately need to come up with a vertical and/or angled version of our flute to make it easier for we senior citizens to keep playing. I had hoped to get to this myself by now, but I'm still overwhelmed with orders. I'm practicing saying "No", but I'm clearly not good at it!

My teeth are gritted though this time. Which makes it hard to play flute....

I reckon one or both of the approaches that the Flutelab people use for modern flutes would work for us just as well. See https://www.flutelab.com/

Go down to the images of the Swan Neck and Vertical headjoints to see the full details.

Happy to collaborate with anyone on this topic. I think it's important.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Conical bore »

Terry McGee wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:17 am But I also agree we desperately need to come up with a vertical and/or angled version of our flute to make it easier for we senior citizens to keep playing.
Is the main problem for seniors the horizontal hold, or the weight being held that way?

At my ripe old age of 71 I can still handle playing my big and very heavy Lehart Bb six-key flute in Blackwood, but not for extended periods. I don't find my Noy 8-key Blackwood D flute uncomfortable to play, not yet, but I've got what may be some developing arthritis in my right shoulder that may eventually be a problem.

If that happens, I think I'd just switch to my Olwell bamboo keyless D flute, which is so lightweight it sometimes feels like it wants to float up in the air when I'm holding it.

Anyway, just my opinion, but I think lower weight might be the direction to go for a "senior" version of our Irish flutes, rather than a drastically different vertical design. At least if you want to sell them. If the problem is the horizontal hold, fluters already have the option of a vertical hold with a low D whistle, although it means giving up dynamic range and keys.

Would a 3D printed flute be the answer if the solution is lighter weight? I don't know if the materials used would be lighter in weight than Delrin for the same wall thickness, but it might at least reduce the weight of the keys for a keyed version. And maybe thick walls like a wooden flute aren't essential anyway. My Olwell bamboo flute has very thin walls and sounds great.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by WhistlingGuitar »

I can't answer the wall thickness question, but the resin commonly used for 3D printing has a density of about 1.2 g/cm³. Delrin has a density right around 1.4 g/cm³, and blackwood, 1.1 g/cm³. So I'd be doubtful that 3D printing will be the answer here.

Also, for reference, I have the 8-keyed Galeon 3D printed flute, and it weighs roughly 330g, though I'd say the scale has at least a 10g margin of error. Still, that's pretty light for an 8-key. That might be attributed more to the lightness of plastic keys than any weight savings on the main body.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by David Cooper »

Terry McGee wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:17 am Hmmm. I've played an original Giorgi, and have since tried to mock up an example out of electrical conduit, and I reckon the idea is fatally flawed. I think there's something dodgy about trying to blow directly against the returning reflected wave, but I'll be delighted to be proven wrong!
It works fine in quenas - it looks to me like an alternative shape of "wedge" making it feel more familiar to players of a transverse flute.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by paddler »

Conical bore wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:57 am Is the main problem for seniors the horizontal hold, or the weight being held that way?
The horizontal hold is actually an advantage when it comes to dealing with the weight. The problem with the horizontal hold is its postural asymmetry and its reach challenges that cause ever increasing problems for shoulders, neck and hands as we age and our flexibility decreases. Not everybody encounters these problems, of course, but many do.

There are many vertically blown embouchure flutes around the world, so there certainly isn't a problem with the acoustic aspects of blowing against the returning wave. I personally play quite a few different vertically held embouchure flutes, including quena, quenacho, various kinds of kavals and neys, rim-blown Anasazi flutes, shakuhachi and dongxiao, among others. Not well, of course, but well enough to know that acoustically it works very well ... with the right embouchure approach!

It is not difficult to take one of the above flute styles and change the tone hole lattice to play a diatonic major scale, like a keyless Irish flute. But when you do this, the problems you first run into are ergonomic. Specifically, you need to adapt your "grip" so that the flute doesn't slip through your fingers and fall to the ground when you relax. You don't get the benefit of opposing pressures at lip and various hand contact points that we utilized with horizontally held flutes. Instead, you need to maintain certain patterns of finger contact which are not immediately compatible with the finger patterns you use on a horizontally held flute, especially when playing ITM at speed.

In other words, you need to retrain your finger work, and it is not clear exactly how to do this most effectively. The other world flutes overcame this problem, of course, often thousands of years ago, but they did so with a different scale and tone hole lattice. I think we could do the same, relatively easily, but it would mean redesigning the fingering system (like piper's do, say). The holy grail would be to be able to maintain the same fingering style so that people could easily switch back and forth between horizontally and vertically held flutes and whistles.

Of course, we already face this problem to a certain extent when playing low whistles. But it is surprising how much additional stability and control you get in practice from a whistle mouthpiece held between the lips, compared to a flute embouchure resting lightly against the lip and sensitive to the slightest movements.

Also, the weight of a vertically held flute becomes a critical factor. The heavier it is, the more you need to grip it to prevent it falling, and the more this interferes with dexterity. Making vertically held flutes lighter is a huge benefit, much more so than with horizontally held flutes.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Conical bore »

paddler wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:01 pm
Conical bore wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:57 am Is the main problem for seniors the horizontal hold, or the weight being held that way?
In other words, you need to retrain your finger work, and it is not clear exactly how to do this most effectively. The other world flutes overcame this problem, of course, often thousands of years ago, but they did so with a different scale and tone hole lattice. I think we could do the same, relatively easily, but it would mean redesigning the fingering system (like piper's do, say). The holy grail would be to be able to maintain the same fingering style so that people could easily switch back and forth between horizontally and vertically held flutes and whistles.
Thousands of years ago flutes didn't need to be chromatic. ;)

The history of other designs sound very logical and good, until we get to the point where a fluter like me needs keys to play the music I'm interested in, including tunes in the "standard" ITM repertoire because so many are written by fiddlers. Those pesky Fnats, G sharps, and Eb's that need to be played up to session speed.

So if you're in that cohort of "Irish" flute players who need keys like me, I don't see vertical options out there being practical. But this is just my personal bias. Maybe there is a market for some innovation that could make it easier if you don't need keys.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by paddler »

Making a fully chromatic vertically held flute is certainly a much harder challenge, and adding keys adds considerable weight which compounds the challenge yet further.

But if there is a market for keyless whistles and keyless flutes, there is probably a market for keyless vertically held flutes too. But whether there is a market or not is a whole separate question from how to make the thing work well in the first place.

And in all honesty, I think it still remains to be seen whether there is a viable market for keyed Irish flutes. At least a market big enough to justify being called a market rather than just the pursuit of a few obsessed zealots, of which I am proud to count myself as a member. :moreevil:

By the way, my opinions on this issue are born out of a lot of recent experience testing a vertically held, embouchure flute, called the "Selkie", made by Geoffrey Ellis. It is basically a keyless, 6-hole, design, like an Irish whistle or keyless flute, but it has a xiao mouthpiece and is held vertically. Geoffrey has one in D and one in F, both in the prototype stage. I've been spending some time with the F one recently and would be happy to share details (photos and sound samples) if there is interest. Although perhaps a separate thread would be appropriate to avoid hijacking this one.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Cyberknight »

paddler wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:48 pm And in all honesty, I think it still remains to be seen whether there is a viable market for keyed Irish flutes. At least a market big enough to justify being called a market rather than just the pursuit of a few obsessed zealots, of which I am proud to count myself as a member. :moreevil:
I keep hearing this sentiment on here that keyless flutes are the more typical thing to play. Maybe it's just the niche group of people I run into in sessions, but I know a lot more players with keyed flutes than ones with keyless flutes. Nearly every halfway-decent flute player I know has a keyed flute (there are one or two excellent players who only play keyless, but this seems atypical). Maybe this is just a Boston-area thing?

Also, nearly all the trad bands I listen to have flute players with keyed flutes. So they at least seem to be very popular among professionals.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Terry McGee »

Conical Bore asked "Is the main problem for seniors the horizontal hold, or the weight being held that way?"

In my case, it's definitely the horizontal hold. The weight is no problem.

The issue is the dreaded "twist of the wrist" that makes the flute one of the less ergonomic instruments, coupled with the wide spacing of the LH finger holes.

And in particular, the wide spacing between L1 and L2. I can still play the Boehm flute, because the keywork on L1 brings the L1 touch down to near the L2 touch.

When I say the weight is no problem, it certainly wouldn't be with a "swan neck" head. Test this theory yourself. Raise the flute horizontally to your lips, now let it droop to around 45 degrees. No difference in weight.

But hold it vertically, and yes, you would need something to take the weight and let you play the keys. The typical thumb rest from a bass recorder or clarinet would do the trick.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Terry McGee »

WhistlingGuitar wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:28 pm I can't answer the wall thickness question, but the resin commonly used for 3D printing has a density of about 1.2 g/cm³. Delrin has a density right around 1.4 g/cm³, and blackwood, 1.1 g/cm³. So I'd be doubtful that 3D printing will be the answer here.

Also, for reference, I have the 8-keyed Galeon 3D printed flute, and it weighs roughly 330g, though I'd say the scale has at least a 10g margin of error. Still, that's pretty light for an 8-key. That might be attributed more to the lightness of plastic keys than any weight savings on the main body.
Again confirming that weight is not the issue. My current 6-key in blackwood weighs 348 grams.
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by Terry McGee »

The xiao mouthpiece is certainly interesting, Paddler, but clearly in the same general league as the Quena and Giorgi. My experience with any of these is that they do not share the efficiency of our transverse flutes. I put this down to the jet having to "battle" the returning airwave, rather than offering it something to grab and manipulate. But maybe I'm wrong? I'd be pleased to hear.

Or maybe these flutes just don't suit my face?

You might reasonably ask hey, what about the low whistle? It's played vertically, or at least, in line, not transversely.

I'd argue the same. I've not heard a low whistle that can produce anywhere as good a tone as a transverse flute. It would be fair to point out that the whistle doesn't allow the player to modify the windway in the same way we flute players intuitively modify our windways (lips). But perhaps the test would be does it equal the flute in the middle of the range, say 2nd octave D?
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Re: A recorder with a flute embouchure?

Post by paddler »

Terry McGee wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:34 am The xiao mouthpiece is certainly interesting, Paddler, but clearly in the same general league as the Quena and Giorgi. My experience with any of these is that they do not share the efficiency of our transverse flutes. I put this down to the jet having to "battle" the returning airwave, rather than offering it something to grab and manipulate. But maybe I'm wrong? I'd be pleased to hear.

Or maybe these flutes just don't suit my face?

You might reasonably ask hey, what about the low whistle? It's played vertically, or at least, in line, not transversely.

I'd argue the same. I've not heard a low whistle that can produce anywhere as good a tone as a transverse flute. It would be fair to point out that the whistle doesn't allow the player to modify the windway in the same way we flute players intuitively modify our windways (lips). But perhaps the test would be does it equal the flute in the middle of the range, say 2nd octave D?
I'll start a separate thread so we can talk more about this. I have a couple of sound samples which I will include that I think address your points.
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