Left wrist

[jim stone]

Update. First, thanks to each of you for your help. Seriously appreciated. I've seen an OT three times now and will continue. She's really something else. Ultrasound, taping, a Chinese fishy thing, cupping, reviewing my posture, holistic in a good way. I bring in a flute and we review my grip to straighten my wrist. Wrist and forearm stretches. A lot of study of anatomy. I'm starting to play again a bit. The advice about avoiding keyboards is proving good. Typing appears to be a significant problem and I'm shifting to voice activated software. In that spirit I'll end this with my repeated thanks. I've taken everything everyone's said seriously. Kind regards

[Terry McGee]

One of the things I would have liked to get to as a wooden flute maker would be something along these lines. Alas, maybe somebody else will get to it first.



You can see it being held in playing position here: https://www.flutelab.com/swan_neck/

The same people do a version that brings the body of the flute into low whistle position. Either of these will take the strain off the left wrist.

We would want a version that allowed for rotation of the embouchure hole.

[GreenWood]

Sometimes when it is colder, I am to be found perched on a chair in the kitchen with my feet tucked under me, holding the flute a bit like a sax, tucked away to one side and at about forty five degrees, eg.




with a large puddle of water below the end of the flute. I can sit like that easily for an hour or more, virtually immobile . It is probably terrible posture but I find it comfortable.

[GreenWood]

So I just had a close look at how my posture is playing like that. Straight back, shoulders level, right arm allowed to go to a more natural position at the side. This brings the flute to around 45 degrees and starting to be tucked under to the side. I play like this with the flute at a large angle to the player embouchure as shown in middle picture below. It is a slightly different tone, not better or worse, and the head is tilted as needed, but not much, to find the sweetest tone. I am able to play like this on both renaissance and rudall style flute, with flute embouchure at a great angle to the player embouchure.



I don't think other players would want to learn to play this way though, for whatever reason. Anyway, the idea that comes to mind for a wooden flute without complex shaped bore is pictured enlarged, where the tonehole is tilted instead, allowing the flute to go to a more relaxed position . I have no idea how it would sound, and am not likely to try making one like that in the near future for having more than enough to do at present.

[Conical bore]

I think any ITM flute maker that wanted to go in this direction would find more customers with a vertical flute headjoint, something like this. It "solves" the problems some people have, but I don't know what the acoustic drawbacks would be.

It might even be done as a completely wooden flute by machining a separate curved piece as a solid block split lengthwise down the middle and re-assembled after shaping the bore and the outer curve.

Now, how many of these you could sell in such a narrow and "traditional" niche like ours, that's another question...

[Terry McGee]

Yeah, that was the other approach that I referred to above as "brings the body of the flute into low whistle position". I couldn't immediately find a snitchable image, well done, Conical! The convolutions that have to be imposed on the bore to get from horizontal to vertical worry me a bit. Especially when we remember that the air stream in the head starts out spiral, and smooths out to longitudinal over the first handwidth - the combination of that process and all those bends seem ominous. Perhaps I worry too much!

There is also an intermediate arrangement with horizontal head and sloped body, taking the form of the numeral "7". Hold your flute up to your lips, then take it away to a relaxed position in front of your chest. The head is probably now over your left shoulder. Imagine keeping the body in that relaxed position, but bending the head back so that the embouchure meets your lips. That would only require a single gentle curve, not a "question mark".

"Now, how many of these you could sell in such a narrow and "traditional" niche like ours, that's another question..."

Indeed, but we're all getting older, aren't we, and a little bit stiffer. And we should never rule out accident. My recent tumble over some unexpected stuff in the dark and subsequent dislocated shoulder should serve a good reminder.

Perhaps all we would need would be one maker to come up with the curved, bent or folded head that could be adapted to any of our bodies?

On the brighter side, I was talking yesterday to the chap who makes my tuning slides, whereupon he revealed he's hit ninety. And he's still knocking out my tuning slides. What a man! There go all my excuses. Down to the workshop!

[jim stone]

I've located free voice-activated software online. For what it's worth the company is lily. The free software includes ads, and you can get it without ads for $30 a year. I'm using it now. I don't know what will come of this, but I do think voice-activated software has come a long way. I'm using the microphone on my laptop, not a headset. I've been typing a lot, and I think it's contributed significantly to the problem. Hoping this will help. We're talking a lot here about aging, I turned 80 in March, and I think an ounce of prevention is, as the saying goes, worth a pound of cure. Now I would settle for the pound of cure. This thread continues to be encouraging and helpful. Kind regards

[david_h]

I met someone who plays one of these (though maybe on a standard body), due to a shoulder problem I think. The geometry would give another alternative for left-hand angle. The air molecules seem to find their way. Would a metal U-bend (or 90 degree bend, or whatever) in a wooden flute be much different to having a lined head?

[Terry McGee]

I would expect some loss from the energy in the vacillating wind column, but I would imagine it isn't dramatic, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing any of these images from the Boehm flute world. And given the Boehm flute is so much easier to hold than our beasties, we deserve a crack at these technologies more than they do!

So far we seem to have identified 4 discrete approaches, in the order shown above:
- the swan neck (the least bent, so perhaps the least loss?)
- the question mark (perhaps the worst?)
- the numeral seven (perhaps the second least loss?), and
- the U bend (just a bit further round than the 7)

I could visualise an intermediate between the numeral seven and the U bend - why force the body right back up to the horizontal - why not let it relax a bit at the foot end? IE don't go for the full 180 degrees, aim more for 135 or so?

An interesting aspect of all of these is that they would work better on our flutes than on the Boehm, as the head & barrel section on our flutes are longer. If the bend were placed near the top of the LH section, it could allow a bit more straight tubing after the embouchure hole, allowing the spiral air column more room to straighten out before encountering the bend. The curve could be less tight. And it could allow the flute body to be more well centred in front of the player.

But this is all surmise until we can give it a go. I wonder where we can find a bit of bent up tubing we could try out? ID would need to be around 3/4" (19mm). Thinking caps on here!

[Terry McGee]

Oooh, just noticed that Boehm flute with the U-bend head has an "Integral Short D foot". I don't remember seeing that in a Boehm before!

[david_h]

Oooh, just noticed that Boehm flute with the U-bend head has an "Integral Short D foot". I don't remember seeing that in a Boehm before!

Many of the photos I found have small children playing them.

[an seanduine]

The tube bending process is really pretty straight forward. Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAF4l12xnSg is a short video detailing the process for brass winds.
When I worked in a Copper and Brass shop we fabricated two bent thirty foot exhaust pipes, each approximately 18 inches in diameter, made of Naval Gun Brass, in exactly this fashion, for a US Naval Anti-submarine Chaser. The difference was that it took about a week of melting buckets full of pitch to fill each pipe, and nearly as long to ´burn´ them out. We had to use the overhead crane and slings to handle the tubes. It took a week to cool the pipes before bending. We had an old multi-ton coining press from the philadelphia mint (foundry dates on it from the 1890´s) to ´bump´ the bends into each tube using enormous wooden shaped bending blocks.

Bob

[Conical bore]

Would a metal U-bend (or 90 degree bend, or whatever) in a wooden flute be much different to having a lined head?

There is enough disagreement about whether we can even hear the difference between lined and unlined head joints that I doubt it would be a major concern.

Although, the aesthetics of a wooden curve would be so much better. Or maybe a Delrin tube curved that way to match an otherwise blackwood flute. Can Delrin be bent that way? Or would it have to be injection molded or 3D printed in some other material?

[kmag]

I have a similar problem in my left wrist. For me, I believe it is the combination of a few problems. Not only is my wrist bent but my fingers are short forcing me to stretch the fingers with a bent wrist. Either one is not the problem but the combination is.
Since the finger spacing can be helped but not eliminated all I can do is try to straighten the wrist as much as I can. I am no longer comfortable playing a single body flute as I once was. I play a flute more often now in which the body is in two pieces. I turn the left handed piece more inward and have the right hand piece where it is a more natural grip as well. The bad part is that my keyed flute is a Nicholson type with a one piece body. Even when we find the right flute it is not always the best permanent fit.

[Terry McGee]

The tube bending process is really pretty straight forward. Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAF4l12xnSg is a short video detailing the process for brass winds.
When I worked in a Copper and Brass shop we fabricated two bent thirty foot exhaust pipes, each approximately 18 inches in diameter, made of Naval Gun Brass, in exactly this fashion, for a US Naval Anti-submarine Chaser. The difference was that it took about a week of melting buckets full of pitch to fill each pipe, and nearly as long to ´burn´ them out. We had to use the overhead crane and slings to handle the tubes. It took a week to cool the pipes before bending. We had an old multi-ton coining press from the philadelphia mint (foundry dates on it from the 1890´s) to ´bump´ the bends into each tube using enormous wooden shaped bending blocks.

Sounds like we can safely put Bob in charge of coming up with the prototype!

The video method shown would probably get us as far as the swan neck approach. I'm imagining (there's that word again!) that if you try for a really tight bend (eg the U-bend or the numeral 7) you would find that the metal "work hardens" along the way, so you might need to anneal it again (which would require emptying and refilling it with the pitch). But again, a conjecture only at this time.

Note that the ? approach (shown below) was achieved by fabricating the bend. This isn't as hard as perhaps it looks. You cut angled segments out of a tube, but leave the bits just joined along the outer spine to simplify line-up. Then bend, and hold together, solder and subsequently clean up each joint. The whole process would be pretty tedious though!



I've sent an image of the U-bend to my 90 year old tuning slide maker to see if he has any bright ideas.

It would be pretty desirable to be able to practice on thin-walled brass before risking sterling silver. Anyone have a source of 19mm ID (3/4"), circa 20mm OD brass at the ready?