Original Flute Owners - data needed!

[jemtheflute]

I suppose it would be asking too much for Jem to give us that measure expressed as a per centage of a cubit. . .

Bob

Approximately 48%, taking a median figure for a cubit. But we don't do half measures here on C&F, do we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ell

[an seanduine]

I can't speak for C&F, but for my own part I like full measure in my pints and my 'chunes'.

Bob

[LorenzoFlute]

Make that the 9 points (of roguery..... ).

http://source.pipers.ie/Search/SearchRe ... iaId=21095
http://source.pipers.ie/Search/SearchRe ... diaId=4498

[Terry McGee]

Terry, your original arguments in favour of the C#-Eb length as an indicator still generally make good sense to me in their own right, but watching that Rudall in the other thread and with 3 different Rudalls in front of me laid side by side, the fact the C#-E wasn't changing while the C#-Eb and the emb-C# were was rather striking. As I implied above, I think this has been observed previously, but probably hasn't been sampled systematically. It does rather expose a weakness in using the C#-Eb as a sole indicator if one is trying to establish the likely playing pitch centring of a distant flute, and probably for other uses. To whit, if the essential body scaling is remaining unchanged as shown by the C#-E length, then a shorter C#-Eb tells us flat foot syndrome has been addressed and the expected use pitch range has moved higher, but not that the flute has been fully rescaled for higher pitch use.

Not sure about that. C#-E seems to have a bit of a life of its own. As we saw in the case of Rudall only flutes, it didn't change much - indeed it got fractionally longer at a time when everything else was getting significantly shorter. But comparing that length to other flutes - Nicholsons and Prattens are shorter (that's a bit weird - Nicholsons should be about the same!), and Potters are the same (they should be longer!). So we might just be seeing a Rudall peculiarity. That might be enough reason to collect C#-E data!

Sounding length and C#-Eb length alone did not, in the case of #7232, tell us enough about its probable playing qualities and it would have seemed likely that it would be at least moderately High Pitch orientated. Knowing it had the same C#-E length as other flutes known to operate satisfactorily at 440 and that the foot was (probably - pending Jon's observations when he gets it) not excessively shortened and that the tuning slide had enough scope to pull the head out to a 440-zone SL made a huge difference to our attitudes towards the flute. Of course, until we have Jon's hands-on comments we won't know if our calculations are borne out, but I'm fairly confident..... If the central scaling represented by the C#-E length had been significantly shorter, our interpretation would have been different, and the C#-Eb length alone could not have shown us that.

I'm not sure about that either - I'm reasonably confident that it should work well at 440, based solely on the C#-D# figure. But that's because I seem to be happy with flutes around 248. As you say, we'll find out more later.

So back to compiling a useful data set - I think the 7 measurements I hit on actually give a pretty full picture. Not as full as having measurements of the joints as well as of hole distributions, like in your full survey questionnaire you've used for years, but pretty serviceable for so few items. The only possibly significant thing they don't show is what is happening at the middle joint, between upper and lower bodies. If the C#-E length shortens, does it do so by a general rescaling of all the tone holes on the two body joints (one on a "Pratten style" flute) or by simply chopping off a bit each side between holes L3 and R4, much as they seem to have shortened lower body foot end and upper end of the foot in reducing the C#-Eb length (and maybe taken a little off the foot extremity) and in remedying flat foot syndrome when pitches way below 432 were no longer needed?

It's not clear. Just lining a few flutes up seems to show that they are all over the place! I can't immediately see a way of detecting that with less than full measurements.

With a little arithmetic, from "my" 7 points one can see if the head/barrel has been shortened or the embouchure moved down-tube, one can see if the upper body top end has been shortened, if the lower body-foot joint area has been contracted, if the foot end has been shortened, etc., in addition to direct comparison of the simple measurements. They are also relatively easy to take and not too hard to explain. Ideally, of course, one would also wish to have some actual sound pitch data for a significant sample of flutes across the range as well, to anchor the dimensions to real pitches (say the absolute pitch of G with slide closed and the slide extension/SL which provides a concert pitch G), but that tends not to be feasible when enquiring after eBay flutes and, if a more serious scientific survey is the purpose, the problems of inconsistency between different players' techniques as testers etc. - all those imponderable variables - make things extra tricky, though I think it would still be worthwhile gathering such data. It'd probably also be desirable to have readings for low D (to examine flat foot-ism and relate it to the measurements), but as sounding D well (optimally and consistently) on a flat foot flute is a generally vexed issue, I suspect the data would be too unreliable unless one could get all the flutes tested by one (honk-proficient) player on a single occasion.

So, how's about a survey from us player types with (8-key, C foot) antique flutes in playing fettle....? Make that the 9 points (of roguery..... ).

Overall Length (OL)
Sounding Length (SL)
Embouchure centre to barrel end (Em-BE)
Embouchure to C#/L1 hole centre (Em-C#)
Centre C#/L1 hole to centre E/R3 hole (C#-E)
Centre C#/L1 hole to centre Eb key cup or centre Eb hole (C#-Eb)
Centre Eb key cup or centre Eb hole to foot end (Eb-end)
Pitch of G in Hz (or Hz +/- deviation from concert pitch), slide closed
Slide extension/SL necessary to obtain an in-tune concert pitch G.

I've got access to a few more non Rudalls which should be helpful (Fentums, Wylde, Hawkes, etc.) and should be able to get at a few more R&Rs before New Year Will try to get them done soon.

I'm certainly happy to try to make sense of the numbers if people are willing to provide them. And that's probably the only way to see if they tell us something.

Oh, and Terry, I'm another who is perfectly happy playing a 258mm C#-Eb at 440 tuning.

Hmmm, I think you're upping the ante - Graeme I think went as far as 255 or so. Now there is an interesting issue. If you use the offset blowing technique (blowing down) you are not going to see the real tuning of the low octave. But, since we believe the 19th century English players also used that technique (Nicholson's reference about the tone being as reedy as a Hautbuoy [oboe], and Gunn's specific instructions), they wouldn't either. So that puts us rather in a difficult position as to how to judge that. I wonder if the second octave tuning alone might be an indicator?

Terry

[LorenzoFlute]

So, if the C#-Eb length of english antiques is usually good for playing at 440hz, but the sounding length is short, it means that they just need a longer embouchure hole-C# distance, that you can achieve with a longer headjoint. But what about the bore? Is it better to have the conical body section longer, or is it ok to have the cylindrical headjoint so long?

[jemtheflute]

Leaving aside non-R&Rs for now (until we have more extensive data), if we play with a Nicholsonian technique (so far as we understand that), then we ought to be blowing the flutes flatter overall, though bringing the flat foot and often-sharp upper L hand notes closer in. Yet "we" do not in general have to push tuning slides right home to get 440-centred performance from C#-E c 200mm/C#-Eb c 255mm flutes, even on earlier, longer emb-C# instruments.

FWIW, on my #4683 with its 258mm C#-Eb (and admitted flat foot), with its Patent Head at full extension (32mm, giving an emb-C# of 250mm (we can't do this test without a PH to refer to!), if I play a G my tuner registers a 440 F# (370Hz) +6Hz - so a reading of 376Hz (a 440 Concert pitch G =392Hz), which equates approximately to a G at A=422. The flat foot more-or-less disappears at that slide extension and the general internal 1st 8ve intonation is far more consistent (with orthodox vented fingerings) save for the upper L hand notes being a little flat. Take the slide in about 10-11mm (1/3rd of its range) and I get an A=430 tuning with in-tune upper L hand and slight flat foot. Take the slide in another 1/3rd to c12-13mm extension and I get an A=440 tuning with significant flat foot and slight upper L hand sharpening. Close the slide and I get approximately an A=455 scale with significant stretching at both ends.

Moving to #6409 (while it's with me). If I open its slide c 35-6mm (at which it is still secure) to an emb-C# of 250mm, surprise surprise, it plays much the same as #4683, a little above A=420 with slight flatness in the upper L hand. It plays at 440 with a slide extension of about 18mm, again matching #4683 in emb-C# length for that pitch, with slight flat footism showing. Slide fully closed, up it goes to just below A=460 tuning with sharp upper L hand and significant flat foot.

So this is pretty much reconfirmation that the c200mm C#-E and c255mm+ C#-Eb dimensions are (best) orientated on a significantly lower pitch standard than 440.

As for when pitch flattened out, I think from looking at Bohm & hybrid Rudall Cartes etc that HP usage probably persisted far further into the C20th in English use than you are estimating based on the various historical discussions/agreements I know you have researched, so we might well expect to find significantly HP Simple System flutes much later than the 1890s since we certainly find them in cylinder flutes and band flutes, except that the apparent conservatism of R&R et al in their Simple System scaling suggests they may never have properly adjusted it to HP even in the 1870s when it was certainly dominant.

[jemtheflute]

So, if the C#-Eb length of english antiques is usually good for playing at 440hz, but the sounding length is short, it means that they just need a longer embouchure hole-C# distance, that you can achieve with a longer headjoint.

No, the C#-Eb lengths c255mm+ are generally too long for 440, producing flat foot and sharp upper L hand at 440, but yes, a longer head will reduce the need for a wide open slide.

On the face of it, Dave Ogden's new acquisition #7232 ought to be just about ideal for 440, though with the slide opened about 20mm, However, its C#-E length is still 200, suggesting preservation of the old long scale, so it should not have a flat foot, it probably will still tend sharp in the upper L hand tuned to 440 and significantly so if the slide is closed up to play c A=456.

How's about this for a set of idealised dimensions for a flute to play at 440:
OL 655
SL 575 (so c 582 tuned)
emb-barrel end 165
emb-C# 227 (so c234 tuned)
C#-E 195 (drawn in a little at each end)
C#-Eb 248
Eb-end 100

I reckon that'd get (subject to actual hole dimensions etc.) a flute scaled pretty well to be well in tune internally at 440 with the slide open about 7mm.

[Ronnie]

Hi Terry,
Rudall&Carte 6496
Lenght 255 mm
Best wishes,
Ron

[jemtheflute]

OK, I've had the measuring tape, my tuner and a bunch of assortedly distressed flutes out.... Using my R&R chart from the other thread as a starting point, here goes.

All measurements in mm. I haven't checked additions - there may be the odd (insignificant) mm discrepancy!

OL = Overall Length; SL = Sounding Length; Em-BE = centre of embouchure to lower end of barrel, slide closed; the rest should be obvious - hole-centre to hole-centre. The last three new columns are: GHz = Hz reading for G with slide closed; G-SE = Slide Extension to obtain a G tuned to 392Hz (A=440); HS= (subjective) Hole Size, where S = small (very small, like French style), SM = Small Medium (R&R smaller style), LM = Large Medium (R&R larger style) and L = Large (Pratten style).

Code: Select all

Flute            date    OL    SL   Em-BE   Em-C#    C#-E   C#-Eb   Eb-end   GHz   G-SE   HS  
R&R    #2130    c1833   *661  *586   162     221     200     261     *104    396     6    SM
R&R    #4683    c1843    661   578   158     217     200     258      102    403    12    SM
RRC&Co #6409    c1851    650   569   155     213     201     255      100    407    18    LM
RC&Co  #7232    c1910    650   565   155     215     200     248      100  not available  LM

* - #2130 has a Bb foot - these measurements, taken to the centre of the low C hole are not strictly comparable to the open end terminations of the other three flutes, but it is interesting how similar they are. FWIW, the measurements to the extremity of the low Bb foot are respectively 746, 672 and 189.

Now here are some other flutes - none of these was in full playing fettle, some are in a pretty sorry state, so the tuner-tests may not be a good guide to what they'll give when restored, but I suspect they won't be massively different. I've changed the date column to address and added a column for subjective hole size. All addresses are in London.

Code: Select all

Maker                Address                    OL   SL   Em-BE Em-C# C#-E C#-Eb Eb-end GHz G-SE HS
Wylde "from R&R"    25 Villiers St             662   580   161   221  200   256   104   400   6  SM
Fentum (no initial) 29 Queen's Row, Walworth   657   590   162   223  198   257   112   392   0  LM
J Fentum            London (Eastes Cambridge)  661   587   161   218  199   255   113   402   9  SM
Wolf & Figg         20 St Martin's Le Grand    669   585   158   221  196   252   112   404  10  LM
Simpson             66 Regent St.              660   586   160   214  202   260   110   400   8  SM
Metzler & Co.       37 Great Marlborough St.   671   590   158   219  197   258   113   398   6  SM
Metzler             London                     660   569   155   214  194   249   106   408  15   L
Riviere & Hawkes    28 Leicester Sq.           652   576   166   223  194   246   105   402   7   L
R Croger            London                     645   579   158   218  198   254   105   400   8  LM
Anon Pratten style                             642   558   149   205  199   248   102   414  24   L

I have no idea at present what all that shows, if anything. My head's spinning form getting it all to tabulate.... Hmmmm. Not at all sure it was worth the effort... But maybe Terry can work that out, see if there's anything in there which actually adds to (or contradicts) what he's already finding.

[paddler]

Here is some more data for you to crunch:

SL = Sounding Length (center embouchure to end)
Emb-C# = Center embouchure to center C# hole
C#-Eb = center C# hole to center Eb hole

Code: Select all

Flute                   SL      Emb-C#  C#-Eb

Fentum                  586     217     256
Clementi                580     223     257
Bilton                  589     212     259
Imlay                   583     215     259
FirthSonCo              583     219     259
WmHall                  527     213     261
FirthPondCo             528     213     261
FHP                     528     213     262

Fentum: Francis Fentum, 29 Queens Row (med hole 8 key)
Clementi: Clementi & Co, London, Patent (med hole 8 key)
Bilton: Bilton, 9 Westminster Br. Rd. (small hole 8 key)
Imlay: Imlay Fecit, London (large hole 8 key)
FirthSonCo: Firth Son & Co (med hole 8 key)
Wm Hall: William Hall & Son, N.-York (small hole 6 key)
FirthPondCo Firth Pond & Co, N-York (small hole 4 key)
FHP Firth Hall & Pond, N-York (small hole 4 key)

[paddler]

I also meant to add that the Firth Son & Co flute in the list above plays extremely well in tune at A=440hz with just a few mm (say 3-4) of slide extension (for me). It is as well in tune as any of my modern flutes. So this evidence seems to contradict Jem's earlier statement about C#-Eb measurements greater than 255 being problematic. I think hole size and bore shape have a significant influence too.

All of the American flutes in the list above play quite well at A=440 hz (the FHP has a slightly flat foot, but not too bad). The Bilton plays well at A=440, and is much better in tune than the Imlay, even though the measurements are quite similar. The hole sizes are very different though. The Imlay seems to have the common tuning problems of other large hole rudall style flutes and needs some taming of the B and A notes to play well at A = 440 hz (something I haven't done to it yet). The Fentum and Clementi are still not fully restored, so I can't say much about them ... but based on the numbers and the hole sizes I have high hopes.

Going through this exercise has reinforced, for me, the importance of hole size, as well as positioning, for tuning. No surprise there, I guess, especially not for anyone who has actually tried making a flute.

[peter20p]

Thomas Prowse flute. There is no number on it, but it's a model with 7 keys (no long F). The measurement you ask for is 253 mm.

[Cubitt]

Terry,

My flute is an eight-key Pratten made by WD Cubitt, Son & Co., London in 1882. The distance you asked for is 255mm. I play the flute with the embouchure in line with the tone holes, sometimes slightly tilted outwards. I keep the head flush to the barrel, which usually puts it in concert pitch (A=440). I see by your chart that you would expect my flute to be pitched lower than that, which is why I wanted to explain how I position the embouchure. Since many players tilt the embouchure inwards, which would make the flute flatter, I assume such players would have difficulty playing my flute in tune, since the head is already in as far as it can go.

Cheers.

Thanks Cubitt

That's interesting because although it presumably looks like a Pratten, its scale length is more in keeping with the Improved era flutes like the Rudalls (Prattens are typically 245-246mm).

Interesting too, in that you have to have the head slide right in. You're supporting the call for collecting a wider range of data made by Jem further up. What is the emb to c# length?
Terry

Some updates: I had the head cork at 27mm and just adjusted it to 23mm. Now I must draw the slide out about 1/8" to be at 440. Hole #5 is 11mm - Head bore is 19mm. What other measurement would determine whether or not it is a Pratten?

[tin tin]

Terry, here are measurements for a small-holed American 8-key: C.G. Christman, 404 Pearl St. New York (1837 and 1851, or 1853-54). C# to Eb length is 263mm.

[MarkP]

RC&C #6745 large holed cocus

SL= 570
Em to C# = 215
C# to Eb = 254

+/- (Steffan might correct me if he took a more accurate measure).