Posting clips

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:24 am

For some mysterious reason (NOT practice!) I suddenly hit a vein of better than normal tone the other evening, and it carried over to the next day - so instead of doing what I should have been doing (writing up my accounts to get sorted for my tax return!!!!) I set about trying to record a few clips.... and inevitably found that the good tone magic didn't extend to good fingers/time-keeping - aaaaaargh! Anyway, I did produce a few clips I was happy with and didn't delete - here are a couple, both on my R&R:

The Mills Are Grinding - trad reel - I think this version is from the Miles Krassen edition of O'Neills. It's in the "1001" (#627) in a different setting in a different key. The clacking sounds are the pewter plug foot keys on my R&R.

The Cat in the Chair This is a (quite old!) tune of my own - deliberately pseudo-O'Carolan. It isn't meant to be a waltz.

BTW, Diane, I'm trying, not entirely successfully yet, to control/get rid of my involuntary torso-tension induced breath vibrato.
Arbo, that same problem (who am I to talk, then?) is my main criticism of your latest clip - big and rather uncontrolled breath vibrato on held notes. I enjoyed it otherwise. Did the explanation of the D to E thing above help?

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:10 am

Don't worry too much about the tension vibrato thing. I guess my hearing was sensitive to it after listening to someone else (some flute clips from a Slow Session site somewhere out there) who has it bad and so hearing even just a little of it was annoying to me.

I thought your clips were nice. Is this the time of year to feel like playing slower or more somber tunes? I've been feeling like playing slower tunes myself. Trip to Pakistan, Aran Boat Song, some Carolan stuff. I would post a recording except that a) I seem to play worse than ever lately and b) my birds are always yelling at me lately.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:27 am

sbfluter wrote:Don't worry too much about the tension vibrato thing.

Thanks, Diane - I'm not worrying too much about it, but it is one of the things I like about this thread, that comments received point up things to work on. Sometimes they are things one had not noticed, other times (as in this case for me) they remind me about something I was vaguely aware of but probably chosing to ignore - and once I started thinking about it and specifically observing/analysing myself over it thanks to your comment, I realised it was part of a wider tension problem which also has other effects - so, whilst I don't have an instant solution to it and there is a habitual element to deal with, I do feel there are things I can do about it that will have ongoing benefits and help make me a better player.

sbfluter wrote:Is this the time of year to feel like playing slower or more sombre tunes?

SAD, isn't it? It has been rather grey and dismal here - and quite chilly by our standards, for several days. That's not actually why I did the slow tunes, though - my reasons were a combination of wanting to make use of my probably temporary good tone and to record some more of my own compositions. I'm not feeling particularly melancholy......

monkey587 · Post by **monkey587** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:11 am

jemtheflute wrote:
The Mills Are Grinding - trad reel - I think this version is from the Miles Krassen edition of O'Neills. It's in the "1001" (#627) in a different setting in a different key. The clacking sounds are the pewter plug foot keys on my R&R.

Are you sure that's the clip you meant to post? This is the "Mills are Grinding" that I know (courtesy of Juneberry 78s)

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:39 pm

monkey587 wrote:
jemtheflute wrote:
The Mills Are Grinding - trad reel - I think this version is from the Miles Krassen edition of O'Neills. It's in the "1001" (#627) in a different setting in a different key. The clacking sounds are the pewter plug foot keys on my R&R.
Are you sure that's the clip you meant to post? This is the "Mills are Grinding" that I know (courtesy of Juneberry 78s)

Hi William - yes it is what I meant to post, and it is essentially the same tune, believe it or not. The Ballinakill Traditional Players on that recording are playing a slightly different version of the G Ionian setting in O'Neill's 1001. The version in Krassen is in D Mixolydian, and of course I am playing it as a slow reel, not a full speed one. I believe Kevin Burke has recorded a similar setting, from info I've found, but I've not heard it. If you put the notations up along side each other, you can see that they are cognate versions of the same melody. The ABCs of both, with bibliography, are here on Fiddler's Companion, though the D Mix one is slightly different from how it is printed in Krassen. If you really want/anyone is interested, I could put dots up.

monkey587 · Post by **monkey587** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:09 pm

jemtheflute wrote:
Hi William - yes it is what I meant to post, and it is essentially the same tune, believe it or not. The Ballinakill Traditional Players on that recording are playing a slightly different version of the G Mixolydian setting in O'Neill's 1001. The version in Krassen is in D Mixolydian, and of course I am playing it as a slow reel, not a full speed one.

Looking through the fiddler's companion and my mp3 collection I think the last tune in your tune is most commonly known as "Tuttle's". Bobby Casey's recording of it is fantastic.

I guess I've only ever heard the Ballinakill "Mills are Grinding", on many recordings, and always in Gmajor, not mix. I am usually willing to make a stretch but I don't agree that they are the same tune, whether F'sC says so or not.

Anyway, my feedback would be that your playing of this tune is much more like an air at first and then a 2/4 polka or march than a reel. The rhythm is very un-reel-like. I would think of a "slow reel" as a slow tune that still has a reel rhythm to it. This is all just a matter of labelling, though. I'm just wondering what inspired you to play the tune with that rhythm?

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:56 pm

William, I don't think "my" version is the Tuttle's one - I had a look at that when I was writing my last post and that appears to be a completely different tune. I made a mistake (now corrected) in that post over the mode of the O'Neill's 1001 #627/Ballinakill version - you are quite right, it's in G Ionian/major - I got a bit hasty with some cutting and pasting! Also, I think the person who transcribed the Krassen one for Fiddler's Companion didn't do so totally accurately - I don't own that book, but I have my own hand-written copy from it..... as far as I recall, we didn't actually alter the notes at all when my friend and I learnt it from the book in the early 1980s. I do maintain that it is recognisably the same root melody.

As for my rendition, yes, I certainly do a rather free-form "air" type extra go through the A music, then settle into a more flowing and steady tempo. I agree that the tempo is perhaps more march-like, though I feel it is definitely still in 4/4, and not in the least polka-ish! I have come across recordings of reels played slowly in similar fashion, e.g. Martin Nolan's rendition of Bocht agus Sona and of course the infamous Bothy Band Maids of Mitchellstown or even Matt Molloy's Paddy Fahy's at the end of Planxty's Woman I Loved So Well album. Actually, the original reason for playing Mills Are Grinding something like that (not the "airy" bit - that's something of my own, responding to the way the melody speaks to me.... and a performance gimmick, perhaps) was that many moons ago a friend and I used it as an instrumental break in the song Spancil Hill (which is in 3/4, I think) and that probably influences the way I approach it still - that and the tune itself - its shapes and ornaments and the way they sit on the flute in that tonality....... it is quite a long developed interpretation that has grown that way over many years. That said, at my local session we sometimes play Dunmore Lasses in a similar fashion, and another reel we know as Bobby Casey's Tune, speed-wise at least, though obviously with a regular tempo/rhythm.

monkey587 · Post by **monkey587** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:56 pm

jemtheflute wrote:William, I don't think "my" version is the Tuttle's one - I had a look at that when I was writing my last post and that appears to be a completely different tune.

I wasn't basing that on written versions, I compared Bobby Casey's recording of it to yours, and the contour of the melody is just about the same, even if some of the individual notes are different.

As for my rendition, yes, I certainly do a rather free-form "air" type extra go through the A music, then settle into a more flowing and steady tempo. I agree that the tempo is perhaps more march-like, though I feel it is definitely still in 4/4, and not in the least polka-ish!

OK. It just comes across as a fairly standard polka rhythm to me, I guess I've never heard a reel played that way before.

monkey587 · Post by **monkey587** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:14 pm

sbfluter wrote:Don't worry too much about the tension vibrato thing. I guess my hearing was sensitive to it after listening to someone else (some flute clips from a Slow Session site somewhere out there) who has it bad and so hearing even just a little of it was annoying to me.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. On "Collier's / St Ruth's Bush," (for example) Mike Rafferty is clearly doing what amounts to a subtle and rhythmic version of that chest vibrato. I think classical vibrato always sounds terrible in irish music, but here's an example of more or less the same technique being used to contribute to the bounce and flow of the tune. I have heard the same from many older generation players, and perhaps one or two younger ones.

I've never understood how this vibrato thing becomes involuntary and/or uncontrollable. I'll hazard to say that you're unlikely to hear a classical player of merit for whom this is involuntary and/or uncontrollable, but it seems like most current or former boehm players I have encountered have that experience.

ImNotIrish · Post by **ImNotIrish** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:24 pm

I know that on the air #2 clip I posted, a lot of the vibrato sound is coming from my fingers. I sometimes use a finger a couple of holes below the note sounding, sort of wavering it rapidly over the finger hole. It's one of those habitual things that needs a lot of concentration to NOT do.
Arbo

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:34 pm

monkey587 wrote:I've never understood how this vibrato thing becomes involuntary and/or uncontrollable. I'll hazard to say that you're unlikely to hear a classical player of merit for whom this is involuntary and/or uncontrollable, but it seems like most current or former boehm players I have encountered have that experience.

You are of course absolutely right that a good classical player will not do it involuntarily. Like everything else, it should be a matter of chosen, relaxed control. BTW, have a listen to Jean-Michel Veillon's playing for exemplary controlled use of it. I think in my case it has nothing to do with having long ago started on Boehm, but rather to do with tensing up to push the airstream in the constant battle to achieve strong tone when the embouchure is deficient. The answer is, of course, a better focussed and more economical and flexible embouchure which will achieve the desired power without need of forcing the airstream, and in turn give body and mind room to pursue things like the deeper resonance of a relaxedly open aircolumn etc........ as well as deliberate and controlled use of airstream vibrato should one wish it.

It just comes across as a fairly standard polka rhythm to me, I guess I've never heard a reel played that way before.

Going back to that point, I'm afraid I just can't see it, William - not that it "matters", but you have me puzzled. I've just been trying slowing down some of the polkas I know, like the set I posted recently or the old Planxty John Ryan's set. Regardless of how slow I play them, they retain the strong 2 beat, heel-and-toe feel of a polka - that I just don't perceive in my Mills, which has a more lilting 4 beat and a style of ornamentation that simply wouldn't fit in a polka.

BTW, I've just edited in some more examples of recordings of slow reels to the relevant post above........

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:41 pm

ImNotIrish wrote:I know that on the air #2 clip I posted, a lot of the vibrato sound is coming from my fingers. I sometimes use a finger a couple of holes below the note sounding, sort of wavering it rapidly over the finger hole. It's one of those habitual things that needs a lot of concentration to NOT do.
Arbo

Arbo, one can hear quite clearly when you are using finger vibrato - I know what you mean, BTW, though I tend to use it sparingly myself - and it sounds quite different from the airstream vibrato, controlled or otherwise. There was at least one place in one of your recent clips where one could hear both types going on simultaneously, quite clearly!

I don't think anyone has posted any objections to finger vibrato as an appropriate and idiomatic ITM technique - though like anything else, it can be overdone!

monkey587 · Post by **monkey587** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:59 pm

jemtheflute wrote:
monkey587 wrote:I've never understood how this vibrato thing becomes involuntary and/or uncontrollable. I'll hazard to say that you're unlikely to hear a classical player of merit for whom this is involuntary and/or uncontrollable, but it seems like most current or former boehm players I have encountered have that experience.
You are of course absolutely right that a good classical player will not do it involuntarily. Like everything else, it should be a matter of chosen, relaxed control. BTW, have a listen to Jean-Michel Veillon's playing for exemplary controlled use of it. I think in my case it has nothing to do with having long ago started on Boehm, but rather to do with tensing up to push the airstream in the constant battle to achieve strong tone when the embouchure is deficient. The answer is, of course, a better focussed and more economical and flexible embouchure which will achieve the desired power without need of forcing the airstream, and in turn give body and mind room to pursue things like the deeper resonance of a relaxedly open aircolumn etc........ as well as deliberate and controlled use of airstream vibrato should one wish it.

It just comes across as a fairly standard polka rhythm to me, I guess I've never heard a reel played that way before.
Going back to that point, I'm afraid I just can't see it, William - not that it "matters", but you have me puzzled. I've just been trying slowing down some of the polkas I know, like the set I posted recently or the old Planxty John Ryan's set. Regardless of how slow I play them, they retain the strong 2 beat, heel-and-toe feel of a polka - that I just don't perceive in my Mills, which has a more lilting 4 beat and a style of ornamentation that simply wouldn't fit in a polka.

I wouldn't take Planxty as an example of how to play polkas. Listen to Julia Clifford and Denis Murphy, Padraig O'Keeffe, or Jackie Daly for example.

I would think of a reel rhythm normally as either of these:
XxxxXxxx
xxXxxxXx

Whereas you are playing this one as:
XxXxXxXx

Which, at this tempo and considering the heaviness of your downbeats and your tendency to replace even pairs of notes with a long and short, is easily mistaken for 2/4 polka or march.

What does it sound like when you play this stuff exactly the same way but at your 'normal' reel tempo?

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:02 pm

I don't want to malign anybody, but these clips are an example.

http://toraigh.com/slowsessions/

It's not that the playing is bad. I certainly can't play that well. I just don't like the wavering quality of them.

monkey587 · Post by **monkey587** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:09 pm

jemtheflute wrote:I have come across recordings of reels played slowly in similar fashion, e.g. Martin Nolan's rendition of Bocht agus Sona and of course the infamous Bothy Band Maids of Mitchellstown

I just listened to said Maids of Mitchellstown. Matt plays very much with the xxXxxxXx rhythm I described. It is not the same rhythm.

I guess I'm just perplexed. I'm not trying to be harsh, but the rhythm that I hear in your recording doesn't match your intention. I pretty much listen to irish music all day long every day, and I have not heard anyone play reels with that pulse.