Opinion on blackwood keyless makers for $1000 USD or less...

[BMFW]

This is going to be somewhat of an unpopular post, but for what its worth... One doesn't need to get to know a flute for years to be able to evaluate it- one needs to play at a high level to be able to evaluate it. My background- I have a musical performance degree and have been playing and teaching for 40+ years. I make my living solely through music (now mainly teaching but at one time I played and toured with a signed salsa band), and have helped select many instruments for students (but not Irish flutes- not my area of expertise). Gary Kelly was factually right in his criticism of Unseen imho- a beginners evalutation of an instrument, no matter how heartfelt, is meaningless and can be misleading and contribute to bad financial decisions if one doesn't know that a reviewer has limited experience. All opinions (contrary to popular belief) are not of equal worth- knowledge and skill do count for something. Unfortunately, this forum is a fount of misinformation on both instruments and playing techniques- it is very hard to seperate the wheat from the chaff as everyone seems to be an expert on the web.

I don't see how this could be an unpopular post. You have accurately summed up the problems associated with "consumer reviews" - they are meaningless unless the reviewer can provide some sort of benchmark qualification. Opinion is often presented as fact. Worse still is that opinion is often treated as fact by the naive, leading to unwise decisions of a significant financial magnitude.

[Markus]

Speaking of usefulness of reviews;

A bit over a year ago I was in a situation where a delrin Seery and an ancient German nach-Meyer had started to be an inhibitor for how I wanted to play. I was looking for a new wooden one, and got loads of different recommendations from a variety of board members (thank you ). Many were suggesting that I should go for a Hammy, in fact the majority were saying Hammy back then. Makers from Aebi to Copley were also mentioned, and in the end I was still left a bit baffled. I had earlier had a loaner Olwell all-rosewood rudallish flute on my hands of a while.
Earlier on the board Conal O Grada had said that he prefers Hammys flutes over variety of other renowned and well-respected makers because they 'take air better'. I am assuming that he was referring to the things he does especially with his low D, which in my opinion makes his music sound even frightening from time to time. Anyhow, this was the comment that made conveinced that one of Hammy's would be te right flute for me.

The purchase was in the end resolved by the fact that a nicely timed trip to Cork occurred for me and Hammy had a keyless body left over from someone upgrading to a keyed flute which he made a new head for and sold to me. And after a while of tooting away and trying things, I definitely found that it was indeed my flute.
After that I have had the opportunity to try a few flutes from other respected makers, for instance Grinter included. What I found was that they are fine and vastly different flutes. Flutes which however are not so well suited to the style I wish to pursue. Then again, for many others one of Hammy's instruments might not be the right flute, no matter how many board members recommend it. (It could also be that had I chosen another type of flute at the time, my style would have developed to a less.. hmm.. extreme direction )

So I suppose that the more contextual information is available from a reviewer/recommender, the better off the readers are. Then again, if the majority of people are giving you a similar recommendation, they just might be on to something. You know what they say about a million flies...

And for the record, I have been playing the flute in general for about fifteen years and my conversion to the world of Irish flute happened three-ish years ago. Despite the shortness of time, I've been made feel quite welcome in sessions here in Ireland. However I'll let others be judges of whether or not I know what I'm raving about...

Markus

[olives]

Well certainly several interesting discussions have ensued from my question. I can certainly provide more information to narrow the responses.

I am purchasing the flute as a special gift, which I realize some people might discourage. However, I know that the person I am giving it to would not spend the money on himself, so I am trying to make an educated decision on the best instrument I can get for my money. This person is an accomplished whistle player, having competed in the Fleadh Ceoil. He has a wooden flute that is cracked--I'm not sure what kind it is but I know that he bought it to learn the flute and that was several years ago. He picked up the flute relatively quickly and a couple years played it on a recording.

Timing is an issue for me, as I would like to have the flute in several months.

I would really appreciate any input from experienced flute players who have many years of experience playing traditional Irish music, if possible. Perhaps if you could share with me a little about your experience and what maker you would buy from (for $1,000 or less and with a short wait time) to help me make my decision.

Someone mentioned to consider how easy it is to work with the maker. This is important to me since this flute will be a gift. I'd like to purchase from someone who is agreeable and flexible in the case that adjustments need to be made later.

I've also heard conflicting opinions on buying a wooden flute with an unlined vs. lined head joint. Which would you suggest?

Thank you for your help with this!

[spittle]

I know his wait times are going up (probably 6-8 mos for a keyless now), but for quick responses and a very considerate, thoughtful and flexible maker, John Gallagher is right there. His keyless flutes were $1100 last I talked with him.

I've played Irish flute (the only woodwind I've played) for a little over 4 years now, quite close to every day during that time, and rarely have I practiced\played for less than 40mins to an hour at a time. Though with a new daughter, the 2+ hours practice sessions have been reduced signifigantly the past few months!

I've been fortunate enough to have a friend with some GREAT flutes that I've spent some time with (some up to a couple of months at a time), including a Wilkes Rudall an, Olwell Nicholson (which I believe fellow Chiffer David Levine now has), and an older Byrne. Though it was a bit tougher to play that those flutes (with exception possibly of the Wilkes), my Gallagher has been the most satisfying flute I've played to date. The Craftsmanship is really impressive and he makes his flute to sound great and not just be easy to play. Harry Bradley remarked last year that a Pratten-esque flute of Johns (which I also have) really impressed him and that he was ‘having a great ‘oul time with it’.

My schedule doesn't allow too much session time, but I occasionally take lessons from a local professional player and play at a kitchen session of which I'm typically the only fluter among 4-5 fiddles, a piper, and an accordionist or two (!). I have no problem hearing myself through that racket and get frequent compliments on my flute's tone. Also, my brother who is a professional Bassoonist has remarked on a couple of occasions as to the quality and projection of my flute's tone. It’s a Pratten design – big in every way but balanced and lighter than many smaller flutes I’ve played. It’s got a great raspy bark when pushed and is really efficient on air once you figure out the embouchure.

I'd still definitely consider myself a newbie at this stuff, but that's about as objective as I can be!

[Markus]

olives,

How would you describe your friend's style of playing? Would there be a way of placing him somewhere on a scale between for instance 'punchy' and 'flowing' for want of better words. Or could you tell us which players he might be into?

If he'd be more inclined to a punchier, rhythmical direction ("powerful", if you wish), you might want to contact Hammy about him possibly having a combination of old body and new headpiece available? He is extremely cooperative.

Martin Doyle isn't a bad choice either, I think they're a bit more flexible in terms of the player's approach. That is to say, they sem to be good for both the forceful tooting and some more tender and graceful playing. A friend of mine recently purchased a flute from him and was happy with the dealings. Personally I have tried that particular flute and also had the pleasure of testdriving Desi Wilkinson's Doyle, both experiences were very pleasant. On April 27th 2005, Harry Bradley wrote about Martin Doyle flutes: "They are very good instruments, and in the right hands they can become deadly weapons... if you're into that sort of thing. " IMHO they also sound very good when not played like deadly weapons.

Anyhow, it seems that you can't really go badly wrong with any of the 'major' makers within your range.

This would of course be only my tuppence, and I cannot be the judge the value of my own opinions myself. I don't know for sure, but sound clips might give you a bit of perspective of the direction I'm looking at things from. I've posted bits and pieces to the Clips&Snips - section from time to time.

Markus

[Cathy Wilde]

By the way, I enjoyed your latest Clips & Snips, Markus. Super going.

[Cathy Wilde]

And here's my go at it .... I wrote it this morning but couldn't post because the board seemed DNR for a bit. FWIW, do you know what flute players your friend likes? That might help, too. But meanwhile ....

*******************
One option might be to call some of the more popular makers and see if they have anything lying around. Sometimes people "upgrade" or get keyed bodies, or whatever, and something can be assembled. I heard a fellow a few years ago, a lovely player, with an Olwell made of three different Olwells, so hey. It looked funky, but it sounded like an Olwell!

Also, some of these makers pick up old flutes and work on them. So you get a used flute, but it's been fixed up and sometimes has more features (like a key or two!) for the same price.

But if I needed something fairly fast in that particular price range, I would try .....

In the US:

David Copley
Casey Burns
Paddy Ward
John Gallagher
I don't know anything about Seth Gallagher's flutes, but some people like them.


In Ireland:
Martin Doyle
(although it wouldn't hurt to contact Hammy Hamilton or Sam Murray, but they seem to be pretty busy)

In Scotland:
George Ormiston (nice fellow, might have something in stock)

In New Zealand:
Maurice Reviol

Terry McGee in Australia sometimes has flutes available too, and I think his keyless can occasionally be around your limit depending on the circumstances.

But this only my opinion, and my criteria was flutes I know or sort of know that are good, less than $1000 and possibly available quickly. After all, if your friend's competing he/she should probably start in on it as soon as possible!

Oh, the background junk: 35 years flute, close to 15 Irish flute but only the last 4 or 5 really seriously. Own a Hamilton Eb, 2 Murrays, an Ormiston, and a McGee Pratten; mostly play the Murrays and the McGee. Take lessons from John Skelton whenever possible. Attend various camps. Play regionally in a band and several other gig-type groups, so some people are crazy enough to pay me. Play about 10 hours a week on average.

Me, I prefer unlined heads. (they're also cheaper)

That's what I know; it's a great thing you're doing. Best of luck to you!

**************

OK, I'm going to do some work now.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

olives, all the suggestions are good, and I have played many of the suggested flutes, and you could really not go wrong with any of these.

Might I suggest www.theirishflutestore.com though?
Right now, Doc Jones has a bunch of the recommended flutes available, as well as a few that haven't been mentioned yet, most in your price range, some brand new, some used.

Doc could fix you up, he's super. I'd ask him. And if you don't like the flute, he'll take it back, or trade ya for something else. (He has a few nice whistles lying around, too.....)

Mary

[Cathy Wilde]

BRILLIANT IDEA, MARY!!!!

[Loren]

Cat, your latest avatar is killing me!

Loren

[BMFW]

Oh, the background junk: 35 years flute, close to 15 Irish flute but only the last 4 or 5 really seriously. Own a Hamilton Eb, 2 Murrays, an Ormiston, and a McGee Pratten; mostly play the Murrays and the McGee. Take lessons from John Skelton whenever possible. Attend various camps.

Like band camp?

[David Levine]

I have many flutes. I play them all and my favorite will vary, but lately it's been either the Olwell Nicholson keyless or an old 6-key Rudall (No. 2056) with PO head, that sounds very much like the Olwell Nicholson. I play the Hammy a lot, too, for the challenge and to delight in its honk.
But in truth, had I only one flute I would be happy with that and make good music with it.
Most of us on this board really do obsess over the best flute, or the best embouchure cut, or bore dimensions. We should put more energy into making a clean E roll or not over-blowing sharp in the second octave.
Dollar for dollar you'll never go wrong with a new Martin Doyle. But that's just my thought. For instance, Harry Bradley didn't think too much of my 6-key cocus Olwell Pratten. Matt Molloy liked it well enough and plays one of his own. So who you gonna believe? I listen more to HB than to MM by a factor of 10, even though HB didn't especially like my flute.

[GaryKelly]

Nudge...

Perhaps if you could share with me a little about your experience ...

[BillG]

I've also heard conflicting opinions on buying a wooden flute with an unlined vs. lined head joint. Which would you suggest?
!

Olives - I've been tooling with this idea for about a year now, having been playing Irish flute for about five years. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that I prefer the unlined sound, more mellow, I'd say. I think you could say that the lined may offer a quicker response time playing crans, et al, and also is a tad brighter. I have two of each and play one depending on the "feeling" I want at a given time.

Once again, lined vs. unlined becomes a matter of personal choice and probably can't be determined in conversation - only by experience. If we took a poll I'm not sure the results would be of any help due to the variety of reasons each of us may have for our personal preference. Many experienced session players, for example, prefer lined so they can adjust to the group. Solo players may be happier with the unlined.

AND I'm not even getting into the age old theory of which head cracks and which one does not.

BillG

[olives]

Wow, thanks for all the great suggestions.

My friend's whistle playing can be described as punchy with a lot of tongueing details. As far as favorite players, I think Seamus Egan, Mary Bergin, and Joannie Madden might top the list.