Material and its influence on tone

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david_h
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by david_h »

Terry McGee wrote:... boxwood (density 1.0), blackwood (1.2) and delrin (1.4) ... .... Are there other forms of feedback a player (but not a listener) gets that influences their perception of a flute?
Maybe not even feedback. For the same dimensions a delrin flute would weight 40% more than boxwood which with a 'three point' hold would change the amount and maybe direction of pressure on the part of the face forming the embouchure. For pure metals and the same dimensions a platinum flute would weigh twice as much as a silver flute. Quite apart from the effect on embouchure formation who whole instrument must have a very different 'feel'.

About the alchemy - the only question I can remember asking in a school music class was "Please sir, would a platinum trumpet sound even better ?". And I remember that it was not thinking about music or physics.
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by Gordon »

So, Terry - let me see if I've got this right...

Assuming the comparison is in material only and not deliberately dissimilar designs, an ideally-made flute is created with the smoothest bore possible, the hardest materials, the least likelihood of air leakage or moisture interference, etc.. This is ideal both for functionality, and so that the maker is assured that the next flute will be as close to the same standards as the last flute, regardless of wood/metal/polymer choice. Then it stands to reason (and objective listening) that the comparative results will be considerably more similar than they will be different, flute to flute. Boxwood, for eg, is treated more liberally with drying oils to compensate for its more porous makeup than blackwood, say - and ultimately the instrument behaves more similarly to blackwood (and blackwood to Delrin) than it might have otherwise behaved. When wall thickness, weight, and other manufacturing choices are in the mix, you are more discussing design issues, rather than material differences.

In other words, it's really the unintended differences (flaws?) in a flute's components that make one sound slightly different from another. And in the case of high-quality metal flutes, the differences become virtually negligible, and the design preferences for personal ease of play become considerably more at issue.

That about right?
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

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stay tuned, next week we're off to shoot the Easter Bunny....
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by jemtheflute »

Denny wrote:stay tuned, next week we're off to shoot the Easter Bunny....
Tuned? !!! :-? :boggle:

Can't wait. :puppyeyes:
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by Peter Duggan »

Terry McGee wrote:Now review those three qualities in terms of our kinds of flutes.

Stiffness. Regular flute timbers are at the top end of the density scale, compared to furniture timbers and softwoods used for string instrument bellies. They are the stiffest timbers that grow.

Porosity. Our flute timbers are the least porous of all woods. My experimental pine Prattens was so porous I could breath through it even with all the holes covered and the end bunged. It wouldn't play below A until I clogged up the pores with oil.

Smoothness. Our flute timbers take the best finish of all timbers. But not as good as metal!
So Delrin would be a great flute timber if it grew on trees, eh? :wink:
I believe I can sense the difference between boxwood (density 1.0), blackwood (1.2) and delrin (1.4)
Interested to know if you've tested your own blackwood supply, Terry? Because (with a quick Google suggesting a range of between 1.1 and 1.4 for the heartwood and Dave Copley telling me the other day that 'a blackwood flute [from him] would be around three quarters of an ounce lighter than the equivalent Delrin flute') it appears that the gap could be much closer (but, depending on the wood supply, also wider) than your 1.2/1.4 suggests...

capable of reaching a density as high as 1350 Kg/m3 (ie 1.35)
of a density ab.1.35 t/m3
should weigh in at 1230-1330 kg/m^3
can reach densities of 1.1 g cm-3
Density 1.2-1.4 g/cm3

(Just weighed my Copley Delrin short-foot keyless at 292g so, subtracting Dave's 'three quarters of an ounce' to arrive at a Delrin/blackwood ratio of something like 1.08, guessing that he's assuming a blackwood density of more like 1.3? But better also point out that I've not allowed for the silver rings on my otherwise all-Delrin flute and think Dave was assuming longer foots.)
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by an seanduine »

Denny wrote:
stay tuned, next week we're off to shoot the Easter Bunny....
Let's just leave the Schrödinger's Cat out of it :D

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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by Terry McGee »

Gordon wrote:So, Terry - let me see if I've got this right...

Assuming the comparison is in material only and not deliberately dissimilar designs, an ideally-made flute is created with the smoothest bore possible, the hardest materials, the least likelihood of air leakage or moisture interference, etc.. This is ideal both for functionality, and so that the maker is assured that the next flute will be as close to the same standards as the last flute, regardless of wood/metal/polymer choice.


I think the word "ideal" may be a smidge too strong here, although it's probably indicative that makers over the centuries have generally swerved towards the heaviest woods they can access and work (fruit woods in the renaissance; boxwood later; ebony, cocus, blackwood and metals in later centuries).
Then it stands to reason (and objective listening) that the comparative results will be considerably more similar than they will be different, flute to flute. Boxwood, for eg, is treated more liberally with drying oils to compensate for its more porous makeup than blackwood, say - and ultimately the instrument behaves more similarly to blackwood (and blackwood to Delrin) than it might have otherwise behaved. When wall thickness, weight, and other manufacturing choices are in the mix, you are more discussing design issues, rather than material differences.
Correct. Though whether boxwood treated ends up close enough to blackwood in performance is something we'd need to establish experimentally. A boxwood flute gains something like 5 gms after oiling, so it's overall weight will still be less than blackwood. I feel I can detect differences, but I'd want to sit down with an otherwise identical flute in each to be confident that I wasn't falling for a stereotype. Perhaps surprisingly, although I've made lots of flutes in lots of materials, the need to get them out means they don't hang around long enough to permit leisured comparisons. And there's no point comparing a GLP in box with a Prattens in blackwood!
In other words, it's really the unintended differences (flaws?) in a flute's components that make one sound slightly different from another. And in the case of high-quality metal flutes, the differences become virtually negligible, and the design preferences for personal ease of play become considerably more at issue.

That about right?
Again "unintended" and "flaws" are perhaps overstated. If a maker is using boxwood or a player asks for boxwood, they are presumably doing it for reasons that work for them. But it does seem more likely to me that we are looking at the impact of "weaknesses" in the container for the vibrating air, rather than strengths. My feeling (still unproven) is that delrin flutes are more efficient than blackwood flutes, and so on down the line. But I prefer blackwood flutes to delrin flutes, and many others have commented similarly. But does blackwood add texture that delrin doesn't, or am I falling for romantic notions? Only tests will tell.

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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by apossibleworld »

I think if we follow this line of thinking further, we might be ready to invert the language. What we're calling "flaws" and "weaknesses" are sometimes actually the superior features, even if they are the deviations from mathematical perfections. "Perfect" flutes are boring. This is the same reason that, up to a point, a flute that makes you work a little harder to play it will eventually give you more back in return. There's a balance of course, and if you tip the scale too far you will find bad flutes. But somewhere along the axis of bad-to-boring there are great ones!
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by Terry McGee »

apossibleworld wrote:a flute that makes you work a little harder to play it will eventually give you more back in return.
I'm open to that view, but with a caveat. Supposing you never get to play it adequately? Perhaps you've already reached the end of your ability with flute, or the end of your patience with something that doesn't seem to be repaying the work you put into it. Then it's simply a flute that is harder to play!

I'll have to admit, I'm a pretty lazy flute player - I expect the flute to do a lot of the heavy lifting. Perhaps unsurprisingly, my flutes are at the easy-to-play end of the spectrum, but I get heaps of feedback thanking me for just that. Many of these come from players with experience of flutes that are generally regarded to be at the hard end of the spectrum, many by highly regarded makers. A highly regarded flute is not much good to you if you can't play it.

I'm not really sure what makes a flute easy or hard. I guess it's largely embouchure cut, but I think the question of octave tuning comes into it, at least for flutes for Irish music. The combination might be the problem for some players. Perhaps one day we'll be able to classify our flutes on a Hardness scale?

So, what to draw from all that? Frankly I don't know. Some people seem to follow the profile Robbie sets out - they struggle a bit, rise to the occasion, jump the hurdle and are all the stronger for it. But some don't benefit by having additional hurdles - playing an easy flute is hurdle enough.

Perhaps the only message, until we understand it all a bit better, is for people to be aware that flutes ain't flutes - that there is a bucketful of makers out there making flutes for all tastes and capacities. All you need to do is find the one that suits you immediately, or that will suit you when you've put a bit of extra work in, whichever approach attracts you?

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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by I.D.10-t »

Seems to me that people play these "harder" flutes because it is easier to do what they want with them. Of course one could always get a whistle.
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by apossibleworld »

I definitely don't think that harder is better, or that easier is better. There are things to be gained out of any combination. What is so interesting to me about this whole idea is that your choice of instrument is actually a statement about what you like in music. It's about what you want to focus on, what sounds or ideas or feelings are important to you. Maybe that's why I have a, cough cough, flute problem... it's nice to explore, because how else can we find out what we care about?

And that's why the questions of the influence of materials is so interesting. Basically we're asking, what are the important variables, if you're on the journey of exploring the world of sound through through the flute? Is it 30% embouchure, 30% tuning and holes, 30% bore dimensions, and 10% material? And then of course 100% player.
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by I.D.10-t »

And again one has to ask what defines harder? One can play a whistle and have much of the embouchure tasks taken on by the instrument, but it is a trade off and restrictive and can make other tasks more difficult on the whistle.

I mention the whistle only because when people talk of "harder" on the flute, they rarely mention differences in finger holes, and the whistle seems to be an extreme easier blowing.
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by Gordon »

Thanks, Terry. I used words like "unintended" (with the parenthesied "flaws?") to mean that the consequence of mismatched weight or smoothness is that the flute's sound, ultimately, isn't identical to a much harder material one. Since it isn't unintended, and certainly not a mistake or flaw, those chosen words were a bit of overkill. I prefer wood over Delrin, probably for vaguely irrational reasons, but I've played several Delrin flutes recently that were fantastic instruments, and Delrin is certainly a more stable material under harsh conditions. I, too, would like to think, or believe, I hear and feel a difference between boxwood and blackwood, and - to a lesser extent - cocus and mopane. Not sure I can when I hear others play them, though.

So, I agree with apossibleworld that these imperfections may be what makes the differences, and, depending on what one's looking for, make them a preferred (subjectively superior) material. But since none of this has been definitively proven...

Also, almost on board with you at this point regarding easier-to-play flutes vs. harder to play embouchure cuts, although I've vehemently argued the opposite in the past. I do believe some people (perhaps even this well-over fifty year old specimen?) reach a point (not sure it's laziness, rather physical limitations) where our tone development hits a wall on a particular flute or embouchure style - or, at the very least, it's a daily struggle. We really shouldn't be fighting, day to day, to play our instrument. That said, my "almost" on board dilemma is that many flutes made to play easily deliver an often less complex and uninteresting tone, no matter how well-made the flute itself is. At least, that's been my experience, on the few flutes I've tried with ease as a selling point. A bit like student-to-intermediate silver flutes - fun and easy, but not the precision instrument of a high quality, hand made flute. Since I'm not a concert flutist, the lack of tonal complexity on a silver doesn't bother me much, but on a wooden flute playing ITM, complex tone is the whole ball of wax, really.

But this is an old argument, from another thread...
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by Denny »

minor manufacturing inequalities


'course it's too long and generally unwieldy :really:
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Re: Material and its influence on tone

Post by m31 »

Hmm, not unlike the Shroud of Turin or Lorenzo's oil controversies.

Unfortunately someone will always disagree with the most carefully designed, executed, and reported test protocol. Therefore the myth lives on or is supplanted by another. For those who insist material is not immaterial better have deep pockets. Thank you, you keep our illustrious flutemakers in business.

BTW fiddlers notoriously listen with their eyes -- anyone displaying "bad" habits or form can't possibly sound good. I remember a fellow fiddler dissing Aly Bain for his bowing arm. Abbie Conant is also a victim of this.
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