Ignorance of the flute playing tradition?

[moxy]

As I am also trying to learn, and discover who I like and don't like to listen to, who are the top three artists you recommend anybody have in their ITM library?

[Denny]

and even I can remember how it was to be that age!

Ah, if you can still remember it, you ain't that old...

Funny how as some people age their eyes change. What was so crystal clear in the black and white of youth becomes so convoluted in the shades of gray.

Denny

[susnfx]

What was so crystal clear in the black and white of youth becomes so convoluted in the shades of gray.

New glasses (perhaps even bifocals) will work wonders for this problem.

Susan

[Denny]

What was so crystal clear in the black and white of youth becomes so convoluted in the shades of gray.

New glasses (perhaps even bifocals) will work wonders for this problem.

Susan

cataract surgery next month!

We'll see...

Denny

[treeshark]

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.'

Laser surgery can remove it painlessly.

[dwinterfield]

Murphystout:

I appreciate your focused view. I'm too new to playing and listening to traditional Irish music to debate particular flute players, new or old. I have thought at lot about tradition though and I find the position you're taking somewhat short-sighted. To be clear, I think it's wonderful that you've been able to examine many playing styles and to zero in on the style that you appreciate the most. It's fine that you are a proponent of the music you like. Keep at it.

What I find short-sighted is this whole concept on "tradition". I suspect that many of the old time players you revere did not consider themselves traditional. They might have been offended by the term. They played the best music of their time. They played with passion. They reflected their community. I'll bet they tried to figure out ways to distinguish themselves from their teachers, to play new licks and new tricks to turn peoples heads and to out do their playing peers. I'm sure they tried to take the musical gifts of their predecessors and make it into something different. It's not that that's what flute players do, it's what people do. Their new licks have become your old tradition.

I'm guessing you're a much more skilled player than I'll ever be. I understand that you want people to be versed in tradition as a precursor to building on it. I'm sure that's the right path for you. It's just that other people will discover the music in different ways. It's not a lack of respect.
There are young girls all over the world today, who, in 2065, will say “I hear the tradition dying off. Each year the modern stuff is becoming more and more prevalent and true good pure recordings like Brittany Spears are becoming fewer and far between. I don't like this and I'm just curious why some of you guys approach the music the way you do... Is it ignorance or preference?”

[Wormdiet]

As I posted in the Larsen Book thread, I personally see nothing wrong, whatsoever, with experimentation, cross-pollination of genres, instument styles, techniques, whatever. Promoscuity of influence is a good thing.

OTOH, there is a lot of old music (not just flute playing or ITM) that deserves to be preserved and celebrated. Thank god for recording technology. Make *everything* available. Document olde ways of playing things, because they have value.

The best one can do to promote a style is to publicize and celebrate it. The minute one starts off with an "either/or" mentality, it begins an artificial and harmful polarization. Ideas of hierarchy in "musical worth" are not helpful.

There IS a great deal of ignorance, in the literal and not pejorative sense, about Irish music, even for devotees. In the USA, most people cannot listen to good ITM in a live setting on a regular basis.

[Denny]

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.'

Laser surgery can remove it painlessly.

More of a lens swap kind of thing.

[Wormdiet]

If they'd not been instrumental (at least Molloy) in bringing the Irish flute to the masses, you might be asking why we electric guitar players aren't all emulating Hendrix.

Stuart

Actually, if you want to debate the guitar question ad nauseam, check out the forum called Harmony Central. There's a certain body of forumites there who are just as "tradition" oriented as anybody here, except that they are far more childish about it, and "tradtion" was officially killed off by Curt Cobain.

The basic guitar orthodoxy holds that "good' guitar playing is blooz-based rawk (Zeppelin, AC-DC), or '80s technical hair-metal shred (Eddie Van Halen through Yngwie Malmsteen) or jazz-fusion. Anything else (REM, Sonic Youth, Nirvana) are worthy of contempt.

It's very entertaining to see similar questions in an Irish music forum.

[spittle]

What struck me initially about your comments, Jack - and what was then commented on by more than a couple folks was this idea of a cut-off date for what you determine to be the 'best' stuff?

Matt Molloy is from a third-generation family of fluters - THREE generations, man! Even if there was not a single other musical person in the history of the Molloy family (lol), that means his grandfather in the early-mid-1800's was learning 'traditional' Irish music from other flute (well, maybe not too many flutes in Co Mayo at the time), but pipe/whistle players long before people considered it 'traditional Irish music'. So this man, who is on your list of 'uninspiring modern players', is from a line that far pre-dates the fine gents you refer to as 'old school' and who themselves were likely wild departures from what their sires and grandsires considered good and proper technique and style.

Suffice it to say that you enjoy particular styles from a particular era and leave it at that before assuming ignorance of your peers. No two people's musical journeys are influenced in the exact same way.

Some of those old, scratchy recordings are wildly inspiring to me, and some are chaff that do the style no justice imho - funny, that's exactly how modern recordings are to me as well.

Cheers,
- Ryan

[Steampacket]

Peter Horan is a wonderful musician. I have his & Fred Finn's elusive "Music from Sligo" on the way in, hopefully next week. It's supposed to be a fine recording. I like the flute geezers, but also players like Conal O'Grada, Kevin Crawford, Catherine McEnvoy, Ciaran Somers, Tara Diamond, the mighty Pat Mahan of Easky, Sligo, Cathal McConnell (does Cathal count as a geezer yet?, I think so).

[mcdafydd]

Check out http://www.emusic.com for loads of world/trad music. Some older, some newer. Fairly cheap as well, although it used to be unlimited monthly downloads when I first signed up!

I personally enjoy listening to the more modern stuff, so don't know a lot of those older names. But I did find some of the "great trad recordings" listed at http://www.irishtune.info/chart-albums.htm, as well as Paddy Carty, Laurence Nugent, and I'm sure a few others.

Cheers...

[Nanohedron]

Now I know everybody says they like to listen to the old players because it's cliche` but do you actually like to listen to the stuff? Or do you prefer the Molloy, Crawford, Laurence Nugent, John Wynne, Seamus Egan, WFO style of playing?

Do you guys study the way the greats like Josie McDermott, Eddie Maloney, Packie Duignan, Paddy Carty, Des O'Conner, Peter Horan, Kevin Henry, etc play the flute? Have you ever tried to learn a tune off of these guys?

I listen to both, and am more likely to keep listening to the older-style stuff. I bought "At First Light" and "Don't Touch the Elk" among others and was sorry I ever parted with my money for them. Wynne, Egan, McGoldrick, and Crawford will ever play circles around me but they don't inspire me. Nugent, however, does. Can't explain that, but there you have it. I think it's in HOW he pushes the envelope that adds something potentially worthwhile IMHO to the tradition. You wouldn't believe the countless tapes he lugs around of the purest-drop playing you could ever ask for; live stuff from people's kitchens that is jaw-dropping brilliant, and he listens to that stuff all the time. As for McDermott and Henry, I've picked up a good handful of tunes from their recordings and say as much when I play them. And I do homage at the altars of Duignan and Horan. If I could play like Packie Duignan or Peter Horan, I think my life would be complete. I only wish I could find CDs of them, especially of Duignan.

And as for Molloy, I don't know if I have cloth ears after all, but the stuff I have of him sounds pretty trad to me. But again, I don't normally gravitate to experimentalism and jazz-inspired flash.

It's safe to say, I think, that I play in a "traditional" fashion (quotes noting allowance for personal and regional flute styles in my sources).

[tin tin]

Moxy, listing the 'top three must-haves' is hard, because everyone will have a different opinion, but I'd make go for some classic pure drop recordings, such as Joe Cooley's album 'Cooley,' Jack and Charlie Coen's 'The Branch Line,' Paddy Carty's 'Traditional Music of Ireland,' or Catherine McEvoy's 'Traditional Music in the Sligo-Roscommon Style.' All of these, with the possible exception of Cooley, are pretty readily available.

[moxy]

Thanks Tintin (love the avatar and the nick - childhood memories for me...)

Glad you mentioned Patty Cardy - he was on my list as well. I know it's hard to narrow it all down to three must-haves... I'm just looking for suggestions, and often people will suggest the same things as others, and based on who those people are, I can get a good idea of whether or not I'll enjoy that selection.

So Patty Cardy sounds like a good choice anyway!!