How to leard to blow the bag

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Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Black Arts and Bags – The Gullibility of some GHB Pipers.

Sometimes it is just so hard to be moderate in the presents of the plain dumb, especially when the answers are in clear view to all but the willfully blind and deaf.

I have just had a client contact me to have a new GHB bag fitted to his stocks and this chap asked me if I could acquire a “goatskin bag” to replace the cowhide bag he was currently using. As you do, I asked him what was wrong with his cowhide bag to which he replied “nothing”. So, I asked him why change bag? He told me that “goatskin bags” produce a fuller, louder, richer, more robust sound and he wanted to have this “fuller, louder, richer, more robust” sound when he played.

I told him of the bag testing I had previously undertaken where over a couple of days, I fitted the same set of stocks, drones, chanter and reeds to several different bag types to see if a sound difference could be detected. The results showed that no tone, sound, or volume difference was detected either by the human ear or the software apart from the slight variations caused by the piper and temperature. The piper was once a grade 1 piper and is still pretty steady.

My client got onto his smart phone and showed me a link on one of the bagpipe forums as evidence to support his assertions on goatskin bags.
To quote: “The joy about the bag (goatskin) is the incredible drone sound: bigger, richer, more robust. Most of us in the band have goatskin bags, and it sounds as though we had added 3 or 4 pipers.”

My previous dumbest Black Arts claims were about the Stirling silver reed staples producing a purer sound and the dry climate chanters, I now have a new item to add to the list.

The bag does not produce sound, it is an air reservoir. The bag is jammed under the piper’s arm so there is little prospect of the bag material resonating sound through vibration, like putting your finger on a drum skin only instead of a finger, the whole arm. So how could a band sound increase as though it had an extra 3 or 4 pipers as is claimed? It can’t! If it did, every competition band in the world would be only using Goatskin bags.

The piper that makes the claim, I believe is away frolicking with the unicorns in an obscure corner of his mind, and while living with fantasies is an individual life choice, it is the negative impact such Black Arts fantasies have on the uninformed that is the real issue.

Keeping in mind, all the claims can actually be tested so the subjective fanciful views could actually be replaced with objective data. This would be the death null for the marketing and Black Arts proponents but it would save the genuine piper a lot of time, effort and money.

After viewing a couple of my videos and considering the physics, my client chose to keep his current hide bag. This makes me the biggest looser ($$$) from the process but I will live with it.

Cheers

-G
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pancelticpiper
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Glenarley wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:10 pm I fitted the same set of stocks, drones, chanter and reeds to several different bag types to see if a sound difference could be detected. The results showed that no tone, sound, or volume difference was detected either by the human ear or the software apart from the slight variations caused by the piper and temperature.
That's very cool that you took the trouble to do that.

Did you put the results up online? Recordings of each bag, that pipers the world over could listen to? It might help dispel the theory about bags impacting tone, which is fairly common among pipers.
Glenarley wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:10 pm The bag does not produce sound...
We all know that there are parts of instruments that don't produce sound, but do have an effect on the sound.

For example a guitar string stretched between two points produces sound, but when the string's vibrations are transmitted to the hollow wooden guitar body it creates a quite different sound. The guitar's body resonates though it's sitting on the leg of the player, with the player's arm resting on top.

Parts of an instrument which we wouldn't think are vibrating actually do, for example the little electronic tuners that clip onto the head of a guitar. It doesn't hear the strings, doesn't hear anything. It only picks up the vibrations of the head, from which it knows the exact pitches the guitar is playing.

I should do an experiment and clip one of these tuners onto the end of my bag while I'm playing the pipes, and see if it can read which notes the chanter is playing.

I will say that I was out piping at some event and a woman came up with her son. The mother asked me "Is it OK if my son puts his hand on your bagpipe while you're playing? He can feel the music."

So I struck up and played for a while with him having his palm and outstretched fingers across part of the bag. He indeed seemed to be able to perceive something, exactly what we can't know.
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I will say that I was out piping at some event and a woman came up with her son. The mother asked me "Is it OK if my son puts his hand on your bagpipe while you're playing? He can feel the music."
It is fairly well established the reed sends back a wave into the bag. Several Uilleann pipers, and some of the finest too, maintain they get a better tone off their chanters with the chanter tied into the bag, rather than having a narrow-ish tube feed the air. For some reason chanters made by Matt Kiernan send back a very strong wave into the bag, I have played several where you could feel a distinct vibration in the bag. What does this mean for the overall sound? I couldn't tell you but I wouldn't out of hand rule out the bag's size, shape, material, connections etc, having some sort of influence in the production of tone.
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Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

The Bag Sound Issues

With regards to the testing of different bags, as there was no clear or consistent difference with the different bag’s audio profiles, and I do have the files, to post them would not allow for an objective conclusion. I will leave it up to those that claim there is to produce any evidence. One of the over riding factors was that the sound from the drones would have made it all but impossible to hear any secondary sound from the actual bag.

One of the tests was done in the lab with an air pump attached to the blow pipe with a long silicone tube and the bag suspended from the base stock with a rubber bungie cord. The sound from the bag was recorded at various proximities and the data saved. Even the oscilloscope was unable to detect anything other than the sound from the drones.

Because the bag was being inflated with an air pump, we were able to set the reeds to a fairly high pressure and this kept the bag very firm. The vibration transponder could pick up vibrations on the bag surface but this did not allow us to detect sound as the drones were too loud and their sound could not be isolated from the bag. As soon as we clasped our hands around the bag, the vibration was irrelevant. It was like putting your hand on a tenor drum and hitting it, still made a sound but not a drum sound. Having the bag clasped under the arm when playing would have the same result.

We did this test to see if it was worth the cost and effort for the band to change from a Gortex lined hide bag to a sheepskin or goatskin bag, and if the difference was going to be worth the cost and effort. It was decided, based on the test results, the bag material was not a sound factor. The shape and size of the bag was therefore considered to be a more important factor as the more comfortable the bag, the easier it would be for the piper to control.

One surprising factor that came from a test I did with moisture control canister systems and the bag sound had some unexpected results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRus00FaD2o

Using the air pump, it was found that when the drones phase locked with canister moisture control system tubes connected to the drone stocks, the sound measured at the drones was less and thinner than it was without the tubes connected. This sound difference was measure with both the software, Vocvista Video Pro and on the oscilloscope. What was also interesting about this testing was that the piper claimed there was a vibration detected on the ribs at the time the drones were phase locking without the tubes connected, that was not felt when the tubes were connected. I was not able to measure this vibration/pulse feeling but I can assert that because this was claimed to be the case with more than one piper, and they were blind tested, that is, they were not told if the tubes were on or not when they were tested, I believe this vibration/pulse feeling did exist.

The audio tech was able to confirm that the actual sound emitting from the drones at phase lock was more pronounced when the tubes were not connected. I was told this was a function of decibels but I cannot claim to fully understand the physics. It does however prove that the sound wave does travel out past the end of the stock, (end correction) inside the bag as without the tubes, clearly the sound wave pulses are able to increase the vibration through sympathetically joining, which was not possible when the vibrations were isolated from each other by the tubes.

This joining of vibrations is very destructive on twin engine boats and planes to the point where the engines are intentionally put out of phase with each other to avoid this attenuation of vibrations however, it would seem that if the piper is steady enough and can get the reeds to tune correctly, an increase in sound will be the result.

Uilleann pipe makers have two schools of thought with regards to hollowing out the drone stocks or not. After doing the testing of the GHB bag and drones I now believe, anecdotally, the increased sound some uilleann pipers claim is plausible, and because of the lower output volume of the uilleann pipes, quite possibly detectable with the naked human ear.

This now brings me to one of my pet hates. Many pipers claim that a particular make or model can produce a finer sound and while there may be some conditional merits to such claims, the piper still needs to have the skills to take advantage of a well-made instrument. A fine instrument will not make an average piper sound anything but average. I believe it degrades the skill of a great piper when the fine sound they produce is attributed to the instrument and not the piper’s skill.

I think that too many pipers are looking for a silver bullet through equipment options, (bag materials) and wasting a lot of money on something that will never produce anything but The Emperor’s New Clothes. My advice, spend the money on a good tutor and do the appropriate amount of wood shedding.

Cheers

-G
Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Wet Blowing - A common Misconception used as an excuse for poor skills.

I have just had an interesting email from a piper in the USA who wants to challenge my views in my videos regarding “Wet Blowing” with the GHB. He/she has clearly spent a good while trolling through forum posts and product marketing blerp and has listed no fewer than 32 accomplished GHB pipers that conform to the wet blowing concept. While I do acknowledge the piping skills of the names on the long list, I cannot say is any of them have a clue about basic physics and physiology because their support of the wet blowing concept would suggest they do not.

When you expel the air from your lungs, (blow) the expelled air, if you are healthy and human, is saturated with moisture, it cannot absorb any more moisture and, on a meter, this will display as 100% RH. Because of the word Relative, we know this is relative to temperature and this can be seen in cold climates by the amount of visible water vapour in your expelled air. Dew point.
The human cannot blow any wetter than saturation so you cannot have a piper blowing wetter than another so the term “Wet Blower” is just another of those dumb things we say when we know not what is going on in reality.

A piper can have a saliva problem and this can result in the piper sending copious amount of spit down the blowpipe resulting in a wetter bag than other pipers but this is not “Wet Blowing”.
When I started out, we had a pipe major that would take note of the amount of spit in piper’s bags by looking at the wet pattern in the hide as we did not have zipper bags back then. If your bag had a larger wet pattern than what he saw as reasonable he worked on the piper’s equipment and technique.

He preferred all pipers to have their blowpipe in the middle of the mouth and he paid attention to how much blowpipe extended back past the teeth and the angle of the piper’s head relative to the horizon. If the blowpipe was not back in the moth far enough, the spit that accumulated behind the teeth was easily sent down the blowpipe and into the bag. He would lengthen the blowpipe so it was further back in the mouth and this help with the spit blown into the bag.

He also tried to have pipers lift their heads to at least horizontal as if the head was leaning forward, the spit would accumulate at the lowest point, the front of the mouth making it easier to blow the spit down the blowpipe. The last detail was the length of the blowpipe mouth extension to tailor the blowpipe length to ensure all his other criteria were achievable. As a last resort to those that had special issues, he would have them play with the blowpipe in the corner of their mouth as this would have the blowpipe further into the mouth and help avoid accumulated spit being sent down the blowpipe.

Technique and attention to detail was the real answer to too much moisture in the bag. If a good setup is complimented with sound technique, the wet blowing misconception will become a moot point.

Wet bags through condensation are a problem often encountered but it is nothing to do with wet blowing. When you breath onto a glass window you will see how your warm breath condensates on the glass and at varying degrees based on the temperature of the glass. In cold weather, your breath can turn into moisture droplets and run down the glass. No different in a GHB drone and chanter and if you are playing in very cold conditions, your warm breath going up the drones will condensate very quickly and the result is droplets of moisture running down the drones and getting into your drone reeds. This is not wet blowing; it is physics and no amount of black arts codswollop will prevent it. You just have to manage it as best you can on the day. Current synthetic drone reeds are far more tolerant to moisture droplets than traditional cane. To protect the bag from a buildup of spit, a simple spit tube attached to the blowpipe and inserted into the bag will aid in the collection of the spit so it can be poured out before is runs into the bag.

Another statement that tends to grind my gears is when GHB pipers complain to uilleann pipers about moisture issues and how lucky the uilleann pipers are that they don't have moisture issues. This is another one of those dumb misconceptions used by GHB pipers as an excuse for poor instrument setup and poor playing skills and a total lack of common physics knowledge.

The GHB piper is using mouth blown air and as it all comes from the human lung and is saturated, it is very consistent. After a few minutes of blowing this saturated air through cane reeds, they become normalised at the point when they will not take on any more moisture, around the 24% - 30% on average. This consistency of supplied moisture should give the GHB piper consistency.

The uilleann piper does not have the luxury of constant moisture content in the supply air and, has up to seven reeds being supplied with air at atmospheric conditions, humidity. As the humidity varies, so does the moisture content in the supply air and this can play merry hell on the seven reeds the uilleann piper is trying to control. Just think about it for a minute.

The idea of wet and dry blowing on the GHB is a poorly thought-out excuse for poor instrument setup and poor piping skills. I believe this misconception was also created as a marketing tool for those that create and supply moisture control systems. The concept flies in the face of physics and if those names on the list had the physics explained to them, would they still want to be on that list? I think not.

Cheers

-G
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Glenarley wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:27 am We did this test to see if it was worth the cost and effort for the band to change from a Gortex lined hide bag to a sheepskin or goatskin bag, and if the difference was going to be worth the cost and effort.

...it was found that when the drones phase locked with canister moisture control system tubes connected to the drone stocks, the sound measured at the drones was less and thinner than it was without the tubes connected.
Our band went through a similar thing years ago. Except without the testing part!

The Pipe Major, an ex-FMM guy and a prominent reedmaker, would get enthusiastic about a new setup and we all had to do it.

He had us all get Ross Gore-Tex bags with the full Ross canister system, all those hoses and kitty litter, but he cut pieces of sea-sponge to shape which we all put in the chanter chamber. At contests when the humidity was decent we didn't do anything. At contests when the humidity was low he would tell us how much water to add to the piece of sea-sponge. In Las Vegas with sub-10% humidity we gave out sponges a good soaking. Thus we could maintain, more or less, a good moisture-level to our chanter reeds.

After a season of that he changed his mind entirely and had us go with Gannaway bags with no MCS.

We all felt that there was a noticeable increase in chanter volume when the hoses were discontinued. Probably the drones too, but in the circle what we noticed was the improvement in chanter tone.
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Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

He had us all get Ross Gore-Tex bags with the full Ross canister system, all those hoses and kitty litter, but he cut pieces of sea-sponge to shape which we all put in the chanter chamber. At contests when the humidity was decent we didn't do anything. At contests when the humidity was low he would tell us how much water to add to the piece of sea-sponge. In Las Vegas with sub-10% humidity we gave out sponges a good soaking. Thus we could maintain, more or less, a good moisture-level to our chanter reeds.
This has never made much sense to me as all aspects of this process are able to be measured to quite a small increment. I demonstrate in one of my videos that even with a MCS (clay and silica medium types), the air measured going into the bag from the lung is saturated (100% RH), after about 5-10 breaths, the air exiting from the drones is also measured as saturated (100% RH) even with a MCS fitted. The bagpipe is a positive pressure instrument that receives no air or influence from the atmosphere apart from temperature and altitude so, it is not possible for the external humidity to have an influence on the moisture content within a positively pressurised container (bag and reeds).
We all felt that there was a noticeable increase in chanter volume when the hoses were discontinued. Probably the drones too, but in the circle what we noticed was the improvement in chanter tone.
This statement I must support and it demonstrates that your PM was of an open mind and was clearly results driven. It is a pitty you did not measure the sound levels with each system so you had some objective numbers to reference but as we did, I can confirm what your ears picked up on. If your pipers are/were a bit steady, the drone difference would have been clearly audible based on all our data based results.
After a season of that he changed his mind entirely and had us go with Gannaway bags with no MCS.
I also find this comment to be a demonstration of the skill and open mindedness of your PM. During the testing we did, the Gannaway bag was by far and away the most preferred bag by the pipers that took part. We had all the bags covered so the pipers could not see the bag make/type so we concluded the results were objective. The bag types included 2 different sheepskin, 2 Lee hide bags, 2 Bannatyne bags (hide and Rip-Stop), 1 Ross hide bag and a Gannaway hide bag.

The Gannaway was preferred because of the shape (smaller directly under the stocks) and the feel (very soft and flexible making it easy to feel the amount of air at strike-in). The shape of the Willie McCallum was also liked but it was a lined bag and was seen as a bit too stiff. Of course, this is all subjective taste and preference but I thought I would mention it.

Interestingly enough, Don Gannaway (the original bag maker) is one of NZ’s premiere tutors still. The person that now owns and operates the Gannaway business was a top grade piper with more than 2 decades experience as the manager of a leather tannery and, his son that also works at the business is a current grade 1 NZ piper. Clearly with all this material knowledge and piping pedigree, it should come as no surprise they turn out an exceptional product as is evident from our blind testing.

Yes, I am an ex-pat Kiwi and Don is currently my son’s tutor but I do not have shares or kick-backs from Gannaway and I will stand by my blind testing results as they were the personal views of the different pipers. I also paid full retail for the Gannaway bag my son plays in his competition solo pipes.

Cheers

-G
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Glenarley wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:33 pm During the testing we did, the Gannaway bag was by far and away the most preferred bag by the pipers that took part. We had all the bags covered so the pipers could not see the bag make/type so we concluded the results were objective. The bag types included 2 different sheepskin, 2 Lee hide bags, 2 Bannatyne bags (hide and Rip-Stop), 1 Ross hide bag and a Gannaway hide bag.

The Gannaway was preferred because of the shape (smaller directly under the stocks) and the feel (very soft and flexible making it easy to feel the amount of air at strike-in).
Agree 100%.

It's the most ergonomic bag. The bag shape, which seems unique, is perfectly fitted to the player and the playing position.

It's the most trouble-free bag. Even in our rather dry California weather I only need to season it around once every two years. I follow the directions to the letter: when the bag is showing slight air loss don't season it, just add a tiny bit of water. That keeps it air-tight for a year or so.

I do however love my sheepskin bag! I maintain two sets, one with a Begg sheepskin, one with a Gannaway. They're both excellent in every way, and I would have no complaints sticking only with one or the other. The PM of the band I currently play in requires sheepskin, but I have Gannaway on my solo set.
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Glenarley wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:33 pm I also find this comment to be a demonstration of the skill and open mindedness of your PM.
He does know how to play, a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppy7ITAS_fY&t=38s

(Dale, on bongos, is an excellent side drummer. He used to be our Lead Tip.)
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Pancelticpiper is making real comments from a piper's perspective.

Ergonomics, maintenance, feel, these are the factors that are important. These are also the points that new and developing pipers need to know and have explained.

The marketing and Black Arts stuff needs to be identified for what it is. A money gathering process.

Your PM does blow a good pipe, must be good to have him around.

Cheers

-G
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Fundamental pitch and pressure are important but largely ignored.

I get many questions about fundamentals and despite posting videos and data, it seems the basic concept is difficult to grasp. I have learned that you cannot put brains in a statue so I try to avoid debating physics but certain principles do need to be accepted as a given.

I have covered most of this in previous posts but it would seem I have not been clear enough for many so I will be more detailed.

It is reasonable to believe that most chanters left the maker in tune at a given pitch and playing pressure, all you need to do is establish these values to play an in tune balanced chanter.

This is where the uilleann pipe and reed makers have it all over their GHB underlings because having to play in the second octave makes it essential to establish the chanter fundamental pitch. This will then regulate the reed pitch for a given chanter. Uilleann pipers know that the same chanter could vary widely in tone depending on the reed but the pitch of the reed, be it bright and loud or quiet and mellow, has to be correct or the octaves will not be in tune. While a lot cruder, the GHB chanter/reed pitch relationship is no different.

The design playing pressure for the GHB is set at around 1psi, about 28” H2O. The engineers have established this value based on the drone bore sizes (air flow) and the average strength to length aspect of the cane drone reeds based on the properties of cane. Because of synthetic drone reeds we can increase this pressure because a wide range of the synthetic material is available but we then have to deal with higher than design air flow in the drones and the more edgy, harsh, buzzy tones resulting from the harder drone blade material.

The chanter has similar problems with pressure and pitch and when coupled with the GHB chanter makers not conforming to a standard pitch, the Bb being the only exception, to establish the correct fundamental chanter pitch becomes imperative for an in tune, balanced chanter sound.

It is easy to check the fundamental chanter pitch of a chanter, as per my video, balance the front and back A’s and play a steady low G. While holding the low G, tap the high G and give a little, sharp bump with your breath and the low G will jump the octave and sound a high G. With the tuner, check the pitch of the over blown octave low G with a normally played high G, they should be a pretty close match. If the A’s are in and the octave low G is more than a couple of hertz out, the reed is the wrong pitch for the chanter.

While the tone is subjective, the numbers have to match however, the pressure is also a variable.

As per one of my previous posts, a cane reed has to be moisture normalised to get a reliable, consistent result. This is why we warm up cane reeds by playing them in for two or three tunes as this wets the cane to a normalised state. Using the normalised reed, do the octave G test but this time do it at different blowing pressures and see if the octave G balances at a lower or higher pressure. If it does, play up the scale at that pressure and see if the other notes are in balance. Quite often we find a chanter with a “D” pitch reed plays in balance at 30” but is not in balance at 35”. This sort of indicates the pressure and pitch of the reed the maker used to calibrate the chanter. If the chanter balances out well at 472 Htz and 30” with a “D” reed, it is not reasonable to believe you can play that chanter at 480 Htz and 35” and expect it to be in tune with balance, so why do so many try to do exactly this? Lack of knowledge and reed skills, that’s why.

Going back to my original assertion, it is reasonable to believe that a chanter left the maker in tune and balanced at a given pitch and pressure, you just need to do a little bit of reed skill stuff to find these values.

When I was learning we would have to spend hours learning these reed skills from the PM or older pipers. In the current climate, these skills are seldom taught so they are just being lost. The senior pipers are just being seen as pedantic boring old f_rts by many of the current younger generation so their wisdom is being ignored and lost.

I am sent many quotes from forums with requests for explanations. This has become so regular I have had to create an account of one other forum so I can search for the post and try and glean the full context as some of the stuff sent to me as much is just pure, 24ct “nutbag”.

While the dumbest I have ever heard are that “Stirling silver reed staples produce the purest sound”, and, “some chanters are made for dry climates”, there are plenty of other claims that also ring the bell however, the mere fact that these two claims have been posted and discussed, this demonstrates the level of confusion some are suffering.

Some common examples include chanter reviews/comparisons where the reed used is only identified by maker, no pressure or pitch figures are referenced or provided and the fundamental chanter pitch is never established. Some of these reviews are so ill-conceived, the reader is left to believe the chanter can be played at any chosen pitch. While taping and undercutting will allow some variations, why force a chanter to do something it was clearly not designed to do?

Seeing someone demonstrate chanter reed selection using dry reeds from a packet is also just plain dumb because it is misleading and confusing. In a previous post I listed the pressure and pitch variations in reeds from dry to normalised which demonstrated pressure variations exceeding 15” and pitch variations exceeding 10 Htz. Even briefly dipping a reed in water will not have a reed at its optimum normalised moisture content, the measuring instruments prove this and the sound confirms the instrument readings.

Chanter reed selection using the high G as the note to balance against the A’s is another common question sent to me. I could not find this on any forum so I do not know the source or full context of the information but this is certainly in the “do not take notice of this person” category. The F is the pitching note on the GHB chanter and I clearly demonstrate this in one of my videos. You don’t need to believe me because it is such a simple process even “Bozo the Clown” could complete the process to a conclusion.

While I understand that (most) chanter makers will not specify the fundamental pitch and nominal pressure used when making their chanter, to do so would be tantamount to commercial suicide as it could Pigeon hole their product. They will not even specify the reed pitch they chose when they calibrated their chanter as there may be an expectation the purchaser should know how to determine this information prior to purchasing a chanter although, in stating this, Shepherd and G1 do provide more of this information than most. At the end of the day, the evidence suggests this is generally not the case but why should the chanter maker be concerned; buyer beware would seem to be appropriate.

I have listened and learned over the years and I know there are still plenty of pipers and tutors floating about that can pass on the correct information, just need to find them.

Don’t listen to what people say, listen instead to what they do.

Cheers

-G
Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Fundamental pitch and pressure: ver 2.

I have been sent some questions about my last post with regards to Bb chanters. The crux of the questions centres around as the Bb pitch set, does this mean the same pitched reed will work with all Bb chanters?

Short answer, no!

The question is valid and the Bb chanter is a good example to use to expand on the points made.

I will use 3 Bb chanters to expand this issue, a War-mac, Bb by its age (old1) and two modern Bb chanters currently available for purchase (mod1 & mod2).
In my previous post I used the terms “Fundamental pitch and pressure” where I should have stated Fundamental pitch and Nominal pressure, my mistake.

As previously stated, when the chanter left its maker, it was in tune at Bb (466 Htz) with a reed of a given pitch. We can establish the pitch of the reed through the octave low G. The maker would have set the chanter pitch by playing it to see that it was in balance at 466 but, we do not know at what pressure the maker played the chanter when he tuned it, this being the nominal pressure.

No maker is going to state the exact reed pitch and nominal pressure because this will pigeon hole the chanter and limit the buyers, commercial suicide. So, as is it important, how do we find the nominal pressure?

On the old1 chanter the reed pitch was D +10 @ A440 chromatic for the chanter to play at 466. With the reed crow pressure around 28” h2o the chanter scale was pretty well in balance however, with another reed at the same reed pitch but the crow pressure of the reed at 32”, the high A pitch increased by about 6Htz and the low A by about 2 Htz, not unexpected however, the F increased by 9 Htz. We can lift the reed to lower the A’s and because the ratio of low A to high A is about 3:1 we will be able to balance the scale, except for the F. The F is now going to require a significant amount of tape to flatten it down to balance with the A’s because we are wanting to play this chanter above its nominal design pressure.

This situation was even worse on chanters mod1 and mod2 as the F on mod1 increased by 11 Htz from 27”, where it was in good balance, to 33” where it was a shocker. Mod2 was different again as it was in balance at about 29” and even at 35”, the F only gained 2” more than the A’s when they were tuned however, at 27” and the A’s in balance, the F was about 4 Htz flat. To play this chanter below its design nominal pressure of about 29”, the reed pitch would need to be raised by about 30 cents or a serious under cut on the F hole be undertaken.

What does all this mean? It shows that mod1 was tested by the maker and tuned at a nominal blowing pressure of about 27”, whether he/she knew it or not. Mod2 was tested and tuned by a person that played at a higher nominal pressure. Both chanters were tuned to play 466 at the nominal pressure.

This is all very easy to test so you don’t need to find any powdered unicorn teeth or any Black Arts stuff, no rabbit holes, just physics, a tuner, pressure gauge and some patience.

It is largely chanter design that dictates nominal pressure of a chanter and the throat diameter, position (height) and length have a significant influence. This explains why some pipers believe that certain chanters have superior tone than others, even when the same reed design is being used. It generally indicated that the preferred chanter has a nominal design pressure that is the same pressure that the piper is most comfortable playing.

It should be noted that back in the day, pipers in competitive bands did not all play with the same make and model chanter and it was the job of the reed setter to balance all the reeds and chanters to match the individual pipers. A skill that few modern pipers/tuners have.

You will also notice that good steady pipers/tuners will blow a bag in. Because of their skill and control they will keep altering the blowing pressure till they hear the notes come into tune and then play that bag/chanter at that pressure where the reed will allow.

After you have tested this for yourself you will start to get your head around it. You will also then come to realise that all those pipers you saw on you tube and such, doing reviews and comparisons on new and different chanters, without mentioning pitch and nominal pressure, are just Bulldusters in Big Hats. Wannabes trying to convince all that will listen, that a subjective variable can somehow be transformed into an objective fixed state.

Try anything but trust yourself.

To those that asked, I hope this explains in a manner that can be understood. To the others, just try it on your own gear. It is very easy and the effort is worth the outcome.

Cheers

-G
Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

The GHB with three bass drone stocks.

This has been raised with me several times over the years and my standard answer is, with so many great pipers in the GHB world, why it that only a small handful have done this? If it was an improvement to the sound, wouldn’t more pipers have adopted this system?

This is one of those things that has been seen over many decades but no results or sound reasons have ever been demonstrated so you need to use a bit on common sense in analysing hardware configurations such as this.

I have been sent a list of (alleged) “facts” as to why three base drone stocks provide advantages so I will address some of them. You can then decide the merits.

… it slowed down the impact of moisture on the tenor cane reeds.

Considering the base drone stock is about 35mm longer than the tenor drone stock and, most stocks are made of material that is all but impervious to moisture and, the moist air is being passed directly through the reed, even if it were possible to measure the alleged difference, could it possibly impact the performance of the reed? Enough stated.

…it also had some effect on double tone.

Double toning is a product of reed configuration and/or reed to bore aspect/pressure ratio. Considering that placing a flow restrictor in the bottom of the stock, (something that has been an accepted practice for many decades) is done to help prevent the double toning from air inrush, adding 35mm to the length of the stock would have no ability to assist if double toning was occurring. Select and set the correct reed or use a correctly sized restrictor, it works.

…more room for extended Bb reeds.

Considering that the average tenor drone stock is about 140mm long, and the longest tenor reed I have ever used is 125mm (fully extended including the tenor hemp spigot) and, the nominal length you are extending a tenor drone to flatten from 484 Htz to 466 Htz is about 11mm max, I think this is just an example of someone thinking too hard to justify a ferfy.

…longer column of air resulting in the Venturi affect

While the spelling of venturi is correct, clearly the piper that put this up as a “fact” does not even know what a venturi is. A venturi is a short size reduction in a flow environment to increase speed, such as in a car fuel induction system. In an extended drone stock this suggestion is just not possible and even if it were, to what end would it help?

…tenors strike-in easier and tone in faster and lock in

While the direct quote suffers grammatically, the suggestion is that strike-in is easier and the drones tone-lock faster. The speed of drone locking is a product of the piper interaction and an extra 35mm of drone stock is not going to make a piper adjust his drones any faster, just think about it for a second. Just as 35mm of drone stock is not going to help improve reed selection and strike-in technique. I do not yet have the source of this statement but I would strongly suggest you put this person on ignore.

…mid-tenor set closer to bass drone making it easier to tune in
I am not even sure what this statement is suggesting but if this was stated in an open public forum, this person will have changed their email account to stop all the trolling, of this, I am sure.

…better tuning results in more effective tone lock

The person who made this statement is obviously a friend or admirer of the previous comment originator.

I have done enough and while I do try hard not to be immoderate, sometimes it is just not possible when faced with the level of stupidity and misinformation I am sometimes sent.

Think of the number of highly skilled, well credentialed GHB pipers there are performing on the circuit. Why do the best in the world, the elite not adopt some of these configurations? If any of them did what is suggested I am sure the elite would be the first to take advantage of the suggestions being offered up.

The fact of the matter is clear to me, pipers, like other musicians, are wanting to sound great without doing the hard yards so they will clutch at straws when these gimmicky quick fixes are presented.

There is no substitute to wood-shedding so unless you are especially gifted, you just have to spend the time learning sound technique and then lots of time practicing. Your skill level will be directly rated to your practice time, no silver bullet.

The GHB world is full of gimmicks and a fool and his money are soon parted. The Humidi-cap device is what I think is the stand out example of this. From what I can see, the device is sold at a premium price without a single objective performance fact or data sheet provided. This gimmick was so well presented that it has been given a product award and a list of pipers endorsing the product is also provided by the designer however, only subjective information is provided and the product is marketed from a US state that has no enforceable consumer protections. Join the dots.

What I am saying is just do some research before going down those rabbit holes. Speak to other pipers, ask questions. The small amount of research time could save a lot of frustration and money.

“If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is”.

Cheers

-G
Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Don’t believe the marketing blurb, do your homework.

I was sent the following information on a new “Infinity” chanter from a school pipe band tutor/manager with a view to buying these chanters for the school pipe band. He was so impressed by this following description placed on a Facebook link by a piper that runs an online piping business and tutorial service he thought this chanter would be the answer to a maiden’s prayer.

“The new R.G. Hardie 'Infinity' chanter is really quite remarkable. I've been testing it for a few months and it's now finally out. Bright, stable, clear, projecting sound. And here's the amazing thing: the holes are super small -- nearly 40% smaller on the bottom hand. It's unbelievably comfortable to play and all of your finger execution is instantly cleaner. It almost feels like playing a practice chanter.”

The first point I will make is that this tutor asked questions before separating his school from their money.

The next point I will make is the person that posted the chanter review operates an online bagpipe paraphernalia business and is sponsored my manufacturers. He is a handy piper without being an elite piper, he is a businessman. One of the humidi-cap products is sold by him, a product I tested and believe is pure snake oil.

Look at the descriptive adjectives, all purely subjective with no expansion. One of my pet dislikes as it says plenty without saying a single useful thing.

"Bright". Compared to what? How bright? What are the numbers?

"Stable". Stability is a product of the reed and primarily the piper, not the chanter.

"Clear." projecting sound. Compared with what, what is actually being measured and how?

I believe this is all marketing bulldust that I feel lacks substance and credibility, pure snake oil.

I note that this salesman posted a video of an elite piper playing the chanter so it is fair to believe it would sound great, as would any other well-designed chanter this elite piper played. The great sound is the skill and ability of the piper, not the chanter.

"And here's the amazing thing: the holes are super small -- nearly 40% smaller on the bottom hand."

Infinity Chanter 2 Current Mainstream Chanters
High A - 5.01mm High A – 4.6mm & 4.8mm
High G - 4.99mm High G – 4.7mm & 4.6mm
F - 5.58mm F – 5.8mm & 5.6mm
E - 6.9mm E – 6.1mm & 6.7mm
D - 6.81mm D – 6.1mm & 6.7mm
C - 8.05mm C – 7.7mm & 7.8mm
B - 7.99mm B – 7.8mm & 7.8mm
Low A - 8.7mm Low A – 8.5mm & 8.6mm
Low G - 11.07mm Low G – 9.2mm & 9.5mm

Clearly the calculator had a flat battery or the man from marketing is telling furphies and the only important value, the D – low A finger span is not provided. The infinity hole sizes were provided to me by others but as he is a Fitter & Turner, I accept his ability to measure hole sizes.

"It's unbelievably comfortable to play and all of your finger execution is instantly cleaner."

It’s a bloody chanter, not a pair of underwear. How comfortable can holding a chanter get? Give this bloke a blindfold and then put ten different chanters in his hands. I think you will find just another bullduster in a big hat. How on earth could a chanter instantly give the user cleaner finger execution? Just more creative marketing I believe.

"It's almost feels like playing a practice chanter"

How is the unanswered question? Yet more blurb from marketing I think.

I have seen good pipers testing new chanters and I have never seen one do so mutually exclusive of the reed as this salesman does. Most the time the piper will put the same reed in all the different chanters to be tested because it is the reed that dictates tone and vibrance.

Because this review/promotion is done by a bagpipe tutor, there will be those that are influenced by his comments and their ignorance/inexperience does not allow them to analyse the promotional commentary as false, misleading and poorly constructed.

To make my point, the following comments are from a piper that was so influenced by the promotional comments I am referencing, he/she went out and bought one of these chanters sight unseen.

“Got my hands on an infinity, finally. Super easy finger spacing. Tuning quite good save for a flat F# with the readily playable reeds I have tried so far: Husk.

Not sure it’s a reed thing as the high G came in noticeably in tune as well; meaning it’s not sharp like a lot of other chanters. The pitch of these two notes are both affected by the throat so an in tune high G and flat F# makes sense, at least as much as a sharp high G goes with an in tune F#.

What reeds have others found work well enough in the infinity?

Current solution is to tape high A a lot.”

Clearly this is an example of an inexperienced piper that bought this chanter based on the sales blurb by Mr Marketing. This piper reiterates the claims of Mr Marketing but does so, I am guessing, to convince the readers that he has parted with his money wisely however, the measurements I list confirm the chanter hole size and spacing is actually larger than many other chanters available in the marketplace.

This poor unfortunate piper further demonstrates his/her inexperience with the comments on the high G. The high G is corrected by the reed, not the chanter.

The references to the throat further demonstrate that this piper is quite clueless with regards to the physical properties of the GHB chanter & reed and is clearly regurgitation previously learned information. The comment on the in tune high G and flat F# could not be further from the facts. While the F does have an effect on the high G, the high G tuning is not influenced by the F. Easy to prove with tape.

The question about which reeds (assuming brands) in isolation to pitch further demonstrates a lack of experience by this piper which I feel makes him/her ripe pickings for Mr Marketing.

This poor soul, who I see as a victim, has parted with cash in a way that I see as being conned into doing so. This piper seems to have very little piping knowledge and has fallen prey to what I feel is intentional false and misleading marketing. I feel such marketing people should be exposed for what they are.

I stress, the chanter maker is in no way implicated by me as taking part in or endorsing what I feel is false and misleading marketing. I know this company and have and do use many of their products without reservation.

Don’t become a victim, just ask someone. There are plenty of knowledgeable people in the piping fraternity that are only too happy to help and guide. Parting with your money should be the last step in the process of learning.

Cheers

-G
Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

A new Humidi-crib Reed Protector – All I See is More Snake Oil.

While I have covered these devices in my video requests where I gave these devices every chance to prove they could work as described, all I found was “The Emperor’s New Clothes” and lashings of Snake oil.

I have copped the odd abusive email over my findings and while I have repeatedly asked for details to support rebutting my findings, none have ever been provided. I have been provided testimonials from the manufactures and from people that bought and use these devices however, self-assessment is no recommendation, in the absence of evidence, the mere assertion is merely an assertion. There would also be a certain reluctance in admitting to buying, and openly promoting such a device only to find it was pure Snake Oil, I understand the argument. As I have been sent a “New Improved” Humidi-crib I have decided to look into its performance.

The basic idea by the manufactures of these devices is that it is a good thing to keep your mouth blown reed wet with your saliva when it is not in use. Basic science and microbial control principles would beg to differ for a number of reasons but as these reasons are extensive and varied, I would encourage pipers to read the information contained in this link.

https://peterspitzer.blogspot.com/2013/ ... o-bad.html (SP Blog), an easy read and good references are provided. Keep in mind, these classical reed instruments have been in use over the centuries and these are refined, multi octave and highly tuned unlike the crude GHB chanter and reed, an instrument primarily invented and played to scare the living 'b' jesus out of the enemy.

Now, before all the bellows blown pipers rear up and get on their soap boxes, the rules that apply to mouth blown cane reed instruments, GHB, SP (mouth blown), oboe, sax, clarinet and such, do not apply equally to bellows blown cane reed instruments. Where you may use waxes or sealants on a bellows blown reed to prevent it absorbing moisture, the mouth blown cane reed must be wet to function correctly as per SP Blog (SP).

As per SP, the very liquid (saliva) being used to get the cane reed to the correct moisture level (%), by its very composition (all the bugs and things it contains (SP)) is the same liquid that is going to end the life of the reed, albeit slowly, so why would you want to keep your reed soaked in the very liquid that is going to destroy it? You wouldn’t, unless of course you happen to be a GHB piper that bought a humidi-crib reed protector. This is why conventional wisdom (SP) seems to favour drying the reed after use.

One such Humidi-crib device was given the bagpipe product of the decade award by the bagpipe mob and this was the device type in my video.

The device is supplied with a sachet sold by Boveda with the claim that this sachet will provide two-way humidity control. The humidi-crib reed protector maker claims the device has digital control over the humidity in the reed protector thereby controlling the moisture content to the exact correct level of reed moisture. The digital display in the Humidi-crib costs less than $2.00 and has no function other than to display temp and RH on the LCD. It is not possible for it to control anything other than the minds of the buyers and the award presenters.

The sachet is made of a porous material and is filled with a measured amount of pre-moistened salt and the reed protector makers claim the sachet will expel moisture to the reed if it is too dry and will absorb excess moisture if the reed is too wet. The sachets are sold with different RH ratings and this is the first clue leading towards the Snake Oil alert. RH is the wrong unit of measure to determine moisture in a porous material such as cane. Percentage, (%) is the correct industry recognised unit of measure.

As there is no energy source, heat or fan, the only way this sachet can work is through actual physical contact. The sachet maker was contacted by phone and email and asked to explain how the device worked as there was no technical data on their web page to explain the process. There was also no information on volumes or capacities each sachet was designed to provide this alleged two-way control for, so we tested it ourselves. I should mention that a guitar player put some of the Boveda sachets in his case and ended up with corrosion on some of the frets. We believe it was as a result of the salt acting on the brass.

I placed a dry cane reed along with a Boveda 84% RH sachet in an anchovy jar with a capacity of 90cc. The reed went into the jar at about 10% moisture (measured with an electronic measuring device) and after more than two days, when removed from the sealed jar, the moisture content of the cane reed had not changed. The reed was not in contact with the sachets as would also be the case in the Humidi-crib reed protector.

I then fitted the sachets in the Humidi-crib Reed Protector as per the instructions. I played a cane reed in for about 10 minutes until the reed was normalised with moisture, not <24% and fitted the cap to the chanter. I left this in the boot of the car for several days and when I checked the reed, I was surprised at first glance at the small amount of black mould present on the cane reed. I thought there would be a lot more as a reed wet with saliva, placed in a warm environment should have been pretty black. Because salt has anti-bacterial properties, my first thoughts were that the salt sachet had actually prevented the mould from growing but further measuring revealed the truth.

When the moisture content of the reed was measured it was as dry as it would have been if it was sat on the reed board and it was the lack of moisture that prevented more black fungus from growing. The Humidi-crib Reed Protector and the Boveda sachet had failed to live up to the marketing claims and the moisture that was in the reed had escaped through the chanter holes that were open to atmosphere and no moisture from the sachet was absorbed by the reed. As stated in my video, pure Snake Oil.
The new improved Humidi-crib reed protector has a rod that fits up the chanter and seals the throat so no moisture can escape from the reed to atmosphere. As long as the temperature does not cause the moisture in the reed to condensate on the inside of the Humidi-crib, the reed should stay moistened at the nominal aprox 24%+ moisture. It did not stop the bugs from growing on the reed though.
It would seem to me that many of the GHB mob are just not the sharpest tools in the shed. To spend good money on something that is sold without a single fact based on science and physics just makes me shake my head. Yes, there are testimonials, none of which are supported with factual data. I remember a while ago in the USA (70’s I think) when a chap invented a small cylindrical device that clipped around the car fuel line between the fuel pump and the carburetor. This device was full of magnets and this device, through magnetically aligning elements in the petrol, could increase your fuel mileage and therefore save you money.

This chap had mechanics, engineers, racing car drivers and magazine publishers singing the praises of this wonderful device. The inventor made a lot of money before the general population got the message. When they stared waking up with a sore bum and a dime shoved in their pocket with a thank you not from Mr Fuel Saver, they started to figure out what had happened. How do you think all those “experts” that gave testimonies felt? I think we have the same tune with a different violin where the Humidi-crib is concerned.

When reading the information provided by SP we can see that the longer the cane is wet, the shorter the life of the cane. Even where some classical instrument players decide to keep their reeds damp, they usually use a Hydrogen Peroxide solution or ant bacterial mouthwash solution to clean the reed to prevent bacteria from feeding on the organic reed material before storing the reed with a pre-wetted absorbent material.

I believe these Humidi-crib devices are gimmicks designed to feed upon the ignorance and insecurities of the unsuspecting and/or gullible. The GHB has been around for a long time and sometimes, the tried and true, no matter how old fashioned, is sometimes the best. Be guided by results, not subjective, misleading dishonest marketing. I can only smile when I think how embarrassed those in the GHB group that awarded Humidi-crib devices, product of the decade, are going to feel when they wake up one morning and find that dime stuffed in their pocket.

At the end of the day, a fool and his money are soon parted. In stating this, I am so surprised how many Scots have endorsed these Humidi-crib devices. Where I come from, the Scots are seen as being a wee bit canny, deep pockets full of gorse, not easily sucker-punched.

All the video requests I do are done with as simple a product as I can find that will do the job. I encourage people to do their own testing of products and present the finding/facts for others to see and use. Even a blind sparrow may eventually find a worm.

Cheers

-G
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