How to leard to blow the bag

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Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Good day Tunborough

Your input has led me to wonder of your technical background, not that I have the right to enquire or are questioning you knowledge.

I joined this forum to help a lass that was just kicking off and have learned through direct contact that there are many in the same position. Misguided and confused.

I currently have pipers bring their equipment to me to have it and their piping tested with technology, and to good effect in most cases. I notice that many in this forum have very wide-ranging skills in different aspects but these skills are not utilised as well as they could be.

I was once sent an entire thread from another forum where the “black arts” 2mm of hemp showing on the tenons was stated as essential to getting the “best” sound. Talk about misinformation from the ignorant and battered egos. The thread was shut down by one mod but it was interesting to note that some of the long-established forum members were also using the “black arts” to support the promotion of their personal business products in the forum.

I have clients that want a drone reed to work in their pipes that does not hide the 2mm of hemp. It’s called a tuning tenon for a reason and is designed to be moved but because some established piper has forced the belief that the only way to get the “best” sound is to keep 2mm of hemp showing, the client is running round like a rat chasing it’s tail looking for a unicorn. As soon as someone states “the best sound” you can hear the bulldust bell clanging. There is no “best sound”, only the sound you like best. Ask your average country music fan what they think of rap and hip-hop.

I have probably a dozen or so “black arts” old wife’s tales that I would like to have discussed in a forum where only the physics and science were allowed to be used to debunk such. The problem is that you are encroaching on individual belief structures and this leads to emotional rather than logical views becoming the focus leading to the man/woman being played instead of the ball. So rather than having some individuals views and beliefs debunked, many choose the easy path and live in ignorance.

This then leads to beginners being forced to try and use practices and equipment that in no way helps to produce a meaningful sound, just to maintain some ill-conceived belief of some dominant player, that unicorns must exist.

I understand that forums like this one cannot take the risk that persons may be subjected to inappropriate commentary where belief structures are threatened, but where then do you go when you are looking for answers?

Cheers

G
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pancelticpiper
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

It's funny that you bring up the "Double F" issue.

For non-Highland pipers the Double F is when the note that should be F# on the chanter suddenly clicks to F natural. (I'm talking the written notes, not the sounding pitches.)

Funny because over the years every time somebody informed me of a way to correct the Double F I wrote it down. Eventually I collected a dozen or so purported causes and their concomitant cures.

When a dozen really good experienced pipers tell you a dozen different theories about an issue, it tells you something, doesn't it?

One problem in diagnosing and curing Double F is its intermittent nature, much like the strange sound your car makes that disappears when you take your car into the repair shop!

But I did witness an impressive demonstration by pipe maker Jerry Gibson. His theory is that Double F is caused by the reed getting soaking wet and swelling, and the cure is to put a bridle around the reed-box. He not only got reeds with terrible Double F's to play a true F#, he also demonstrated that he could fine-tune F# by micro-adjusting the position of this bridle.

Most double reeds have bridles (both bagpipes and orchestral instruments) and Double F is apparently the price Highland chanter reeds pay for not having one.

BTW instability with F# on Highland chanters often seems to have an inexplicable connection with instability on D.

There are chanters with wonderfully stable F#'s but oftentimes these chanters have a certain amount of instability with D.

And there are chanters with amazingly stable D's that have finicky F#'s.

Personally I'll take a chanter with an extremely stable F# and be judicious about blowing D.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Glenarley wrote: 2mm of hemp showing on the tenons was stated as essential to getting the “best” sound.
Of course it depends on the particular drones.

I'm a Lawrie guy, I've played numerous Lawries ranging from 1905 to the 1970s and one thing they tend to have in common is that the tenors are happiest high on the pins.

It's amazing, really, how tenor drones originally built to play in the 450s will play at 484 high up on the pins.

Of course it's a matter of reeds, those tenors must have been originally played with bigger longer reeds to sound in the 450s.

On my various Lawries if the tenors get down to the hempline they start getting unstable, below the hempline and there's problems with tone, stability, and strike-ins.

But there are other good vintage pipes that aren't like that! I've seen good old pipes where the tenors are happiest down a bit below the hempline.

And I have a set of Starcks that I've not been able to get up to 480 no matter what I've tried. The tenors completely destabilise and make burbling sounds (motorbiking I've heard it called) when they're below the hempline, where they need to be to get them up to 480. Once again it's the reeds, those drones evidently requiring extra-sharp reeds for 480.

So I play those pipes at 466 where they sound fantastic.
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Tunborough »

Glenarley wrote:Good day Tunborough

Your input has led me to wonder of your technical background, not that I have the right to enquire or are questioning you knowledge.
I've no problem with the query. I have some training in engineering and physics. (Someone once tried to teach me about partial differential equations, and a bit of it sunk in.) Most of my education in acoustics has been reading, an academic conference, and making a few instruments on the side. My strength is in the science of musical instruments; with a few exceptions, anything I've learned on the art of making instruments comes from people on this forum. I know enough to have a sense of what I don't know.
pancelticpiper wrote:It's funny that you bring up the "Double F" issue.

For non-Highland pipers the Double F is when the note that should be F# on the chanter suddenly clicks to F natural. (I'm talking the written notes, not the sounding pitches.)
This falls under "things I don't know." I know a decent model for what reeds do on average, but know nothing about how reeds affect the behaviour of individual notes. I think it is fascinating stuff.
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Nanohedron »

Glenarley wrote:I understand that forums like this one cannot take the risk that persons may be subjected to inappropriate commentary where belief structures are threatened, but where then do you go when you are looking for answers?
If it helps any, at C&F we draw a distinction between the combined realm of religion/politics on one side, and that of other beliefs, such as they may be, on the other. The litmus test is this: Does hemping your pipes involve religious or political values? It doesn't, so hemping, reeds, frequencies, etc. are wide open to debate (and in my personal opinion, science has the upper hand - but that's just me :wink: ). For example, a flat-Earther's belief may be tangled up in politics and religion, but in itself, that belief really has nothing to do with either. Accordingly, you are free to have at it, but only insofar as you speak reason. If the truth hurts, that's a different matter, but I should hope that one would take no pleasure in another's pain.

So what, then, is "inappropriate commentary"? On this Board it includes, but is not limited to: insult, character assassination, foul language, lies, insinuation; you get the idea. The low road, IOW. Asserting and/or proving that someone is wrong is neither character assassination nor libel, but when you ascribe dark motives to wrong teaching, that is shakier ground - and even if such willful mischief on the teacher's part is provable, you need to be prepared for possible backlash, and to own your part in the proceedings. We don't proscribe debate; we prescribe its ground rules, which are pretty simple and even a bit elastic (within reason. You know how it is: you know it when you see it). But once debate deteriorates into a flamewar, the mods err on the side of keeping the peace. Fortunately, Chiffers tend to be a reasonable bunch.

In a nutshell: Debate, but don't be a dick. If you are able to guide the misguided, that is of value here regardless of who disagrees with you, for it gives us scope and perspective.

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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Nanohedron wrote: Does hemping your pipes involve religious or political values?
With some pipers it does verge on the religious...or perhaps it's more in the realm of psychology.

I'm the drone person in the Pipe Band. When the band is playing the drone person goes around the outside of the circle and touches up everybody's drones.

The bane of our existence is the piper who has a sort of obsessive-compulsive disorder about hemping their pipes. They hemp the joints so tight that you can't tune a drone with one hand, you have to put the tuner in your pocket and use both hands to force their drone up or down.

So I, or the Pipe Major, tell them to get their pipes sorted, to take a bit of hemp off the tuning pins. But next rehearsal they have their pipes back ridiculously tight! You're afraid that the wood is going to snap when you try to tune them. But they apparently have a phobia about their pipes falling apart, and they cope with the fear by over-doing the hemping.
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Nanohedron »

pancelticpiper wrote:With some pipers it [hemping] does verge on the religious...or perhaps it's more in the realm of psychology.
I expected that contradictory note - or its like - to come up sooner or later. :wink:

"Hemping one's pipes" ... it sounds almost recreational. I'll bet it's an old joke among the GHB crowd. :wink:
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Nanohedron wrote:
"Hemping one's pipes" ...I'll bet it's an old joke among the GHB crowd.
Actually no, it's one of those things where the people in a specific field are so used to their jargon that they're not aware of it in a way that an outsider would be.

It's like the word "hose". The things that outside the world of Highland Dress that are called "socks" are called "hose" in the world of Highland Dress. To us, that's just what they're called, and that's what "hose" means. But an outsider might be taken aback, and say "hose?? Like women wear??" which would never occur to us. If an outsider made a comment like that to us we would just think "what an eejit".

Another thing like that is "pipes" and "pipe band" and "piping". It's always odd when we're listed in a programme as "bag-pipers" or "bag-pipists" or the band is listed as a "bag-piper band" etc. To us the instrument is "the pipes" and we're "pipers" and the band is a "pipe band" and what we do is "piping".

As an aside, have you seen those videos on Youtube like "ex-FBI agent breaks down FBI movie scenes" and "ER nurse rates the accuracy of ER movie scenes"? It's like that with musicians, it's obvious when there's an actor portraying a musician who doesn't know anything about playing the instrument. With violins the bow doesn't move in conjunction with the notes, with wind instruments sound comes out when they're not blowing air in, and so forth.

There was a great interview with an actor who portrayed a famous musician in a film. The actor said he spent many hours watching musicians (and this is the coolest part) including how they held their instruments when they're NOT playing.

That's one of the most obvious giveaways that a non-piper is portraying a piper in a film: the actor has no clue how to hold the pipes when not playing.
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c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Nanohedron »

pancelticpiper wrote:If an outsider made a comment like that to us we would just think "what an eejit".
Oops. :oops:
pancelticpiper wrote:It's like that with musicians, it's obvious when there's an actor portraying a musician who doesn't know anything about playing the instrument. With violins the bow doesn't move in conjunction with the notes, with wind instruments sound comes out when they're not blowing air in, and so forth.
Sure, I look for that all the time myself. You can usually tell how much real observation the actor has invested. I can forgive the fingering so long as it's not glaringly obvious how wrong it is; the rest is usually body dynamics relative to how a piece would be played in actuality. Only a couple of times have I ever been truly impressed by the result.
pancelticpiper wrote:There was a great interview with an actor who portrayed a famous musician in a film. The actor said he spent many hours watching musicians (and this is the coolest part) including how they held their instruments when they're NOT playing.
That's doing it right.
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Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

OK, I get it now. Subjective and controversial subject matter are fair game as long as it avoids the R&R stuff, and I am not being a DICK.

I think I can work within these parameters and still cope with the different belief structures.

I started to learn the chanter in 1968 and at that time it was very regimented. You could get a crack across the knuckles with a wooden school ruler for mucking up a note or two. Then this was acceptable conduct, today that PM would be in jail for child abuse. I personally cannot say it did me any long term phycological damage and it did help me to remember my tunes.

The nose tapping black arts.

My son played the full bag from the age of 9 and it was hard work for him. He competed in a State Solo competition at the age of 10 and when he finished his grade 4 tune, the judge said “well played young man” and went on to say, that he could not place my son because he could not see 2mm of hemp showing on the tenors, therefore he did not sound as good as he could have. Still got the judges marking sheet. Can’t repeat exactly what my son’s tutor said other than I heard expletives previously unknown to me that could make a sailor blush.

A relative raised this incident on a forum under unicorn f*rts and the thread got so long and heated, the mods shut it down.

At another Solo competition my son finished his grade 4 tune and the judge complimented him on his playing. He then asked my boy if he was playing a cane chanter reed or one of his father’s synthetic chanter reeds. My boy said it was a synthetic chanter reed to then be told by this judge, if you were playing cane you would have been first but because you are playing synthetic, you are not placed. Because my boy was small for his age he usually drew a bit of a crowd when he competed so several people heard the judges comment. My wife and I had people we did not know apologising to us because of the comments this judge made.

In another National solo competition a year later, my boy played his medley for a well-known piper/judge, (Callum Beaumont). The judge told my boy he played well and highlighted some areas where he could improve. He said the bass was a bit weak but the chanter sounded “nice”. Happy days, my boy made the finals.
In the finals, the same judge made similar comments about the bass drone but this time stated that the chanter sounded “dull”. Still have this comment on a signed critique sheet. Same chanter, reed and piper. Latter in the day I was told that one of the old trad pipers had made it clear to some judges that my boy was blowing a plastic chanter reed and that he felt this was contrary to the spirit of the GHB craft.

My boy still competes and is currently 15 and B grade but the comments from these judges forced me to have a bit of a poke about. I have 3 formal engineering qualifications and a degree in education so I decided to put these issues to the test.

The list is long and confusing but it gives me something to do in my retirement.

If we can see 2mm of hemp on your tenor tenons you will sound better.
Old ABW sound better than new ABW. (no specific age is ever defined)
Sheepskin bags vibrate better and are more tonal than other leather bags.
Cane reeds produce the best sound.
Full silver GHB pipes sound better than non full silver pipes.
Moisture control systems keep your reeds dry.
Drones with tone chambers sound better than drones with no tone chambers.
ABW chanters sound better than PAR chanters.
A silver sole on your chanter produces a better tone
A sterling silver reed staple produces a truer sound.
A folded reed staple produces a better sound than a brass tube staple.
A chanter reed cap can protect the tone of your reed.

I have lots more but I would be venturing into the supernatural and I just have no wish to do my head in any more than I can deal with.

While it started with a personal bent, what tends to grind my gears is that clients come to me to measure and tune their pipes with some or all of the above presented as tangible components that I will address. Some of these clients have been separated from considerable amounts of their money on reeds and gimmicks only to find they have thrown their cash down that rabbit hole, and I am the bearer of the bad news. Some of these clients become very defensive and embarrassed, something I don’t enjoy dealing with.

I would enjoy hearing other views and perspectives but I do fear those that have woken up with a sore bum and 20 cents stuffed in their pocket with a suppliers business card, may want to belligerently argue for the sake of pride.

Cheers

G
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pancelticpiper
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by pancelticpiper »

Yes judge's scoresheets often have inexplicable things.

One judge marked our band down for a sloppy B taorluath in a certain part of a certain tune. Thing is, there was no such movement where he indicated. When we thought about it we realised that there wasn't a B taorluath in the entire Medley! So what was the judge hearing?

Old ABW sound better than new ABW.
ABW chanters sound better than PAR chanters.
A silver sole on your chanter produces a better tone.


To me these fall under the category of the influence of materials on tone. Highland pipers may not be aware that this is an even bigger thing in the flute world, with endless debates about silver-plated v sterling silver v platinum v gold. Then there are wooden headjoints, and the debates about the properties of all the various woods these are made in.

Some flutists get so obsessive that you might see a flute where the head, body, and foot are three different materials. It would be like a Highland piper having his bass drone top, middle, and bottom sections of three different woods, on the theory that it produced a better tone.

Full silver GHB pipes sound better than non full silver pipes.

I separated this because you sometimes hear from pipers that makers will set aside their very best wooden bits to be used on silver-mounted pipes. I have heard makers deny it, yet it's believed by many pipers.

Sheepskin bags vibrate better and are more tonal than other leather bags.

About the tone I wouldn't know, but I do feel that sheepskin bags have a more consistent internal humidity level than any other material I've tried. I also believe that sheepskin bags make strike-ins and cut-offs easier.

Cane reeds produce the best sound.

I think they produce a different sound. Which sound is best is merely a matter of preference.

Drones with tone chambers sound better than drones with no tone chambers.

I think you're using "tone chamber" differently than I do. To me the tone chamber is the area above the pin, tenor drones having one each, the bass drone having two, the upper and lower tone chamber. For sure adjusting the size of the tone chamber (by changing how far the pin is inserted) makes the drone produce various timbres and also alters performance, making the drone more or less stable, more or less easy to strike in, etc.

I think you're talking about what I've heard called the "bell", at the top of the drone. Highland pipes aren't unique, many sorts of bagpipes have bells in the ends of their drones, and some bagpipes have bells in the ends of their chanters.

Bells exist on some orchestral instruments too.

Their effect is one of those things that I don't think has been scientifically demonstrated, but instrument makers and musicians have believed that they make for a better tone, for several hundred years at least.
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Glenarley
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

The 2mm of hemp showing gives the best sound.

What actually is the “best” sound? No bloody idea! This needs to be defined, but by who?

They are called tuning tenons for a good reason, you slide them up or down to tune the drone with the other drones. If we (allegedly) get the best sound when there is 2mm of hemp showing, why not nail them together at this position? The answer is fine tuning, the GHB fraternity will allow a mm or 2 for micro tuning management so nailing them together would not work.

One popular view is that if the tenor drones are at their maximum length, you get the maximum best sound. Odd that this theory does not apply equally to the bass but that’s another story.

Another theory is that with the tenor at the maximum length showing 2mm of hemp, the tenon bore relief, (also called the “tone chamber” by many) is also at its maximum length thereby providing us with the best sound.

There are some major differences between the cubic volume of these “tone chambers” depending on the make and model of GHB. Pipers and bands have won gongs and titles using pipes with a bore to tone chamber diameter difference of less than 1mm while some other winners had a differential diameter of greater than 3mm. As a proportional percentage that is a lot of cubic capacity difference. Can there be the best sound and the better best sound? Hard to answer when the “best” sound is still to be defined.

And then there was the reed. The tenor drone is just a log of wood with a hole bored through it until the reed is added. So, knowing we must maintain 2mm of hemp, we must now find a reed that will provide the correct pitch and tone without being able to move the tuning tenon more than a mm or so. This is all starting to get a bit problematic because drone reeds come in many tones and pitches. How do we know our reed is the right reed to produce the (undefined) best sound with 2mm of hemp showing?

This must be very confusing to the newbies.

One way to sort it out is to use theory calculus, a good example is “Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics by Arthur H. Benade”. Lots of useful charts and formulas that are not too geeky but, he fails to define the “best” sound so all his work is for nought as far as applying it to the GHB, so what is the answer.

My personal view is, stop looking for unicorns when buying a set of GHB’s. Find a set you like the look of and can afford. Ask a reasonable piper to play them and you decide what is the “best” sound. Listen to other people’s advice by all means but draw clear definitions between the objective and subjective. Remember, the person selling the pipes is trying to separate you from your dosh, make him/her work for it. Most importantly, don’t be persuaded to look down that black arts rabbit hole.

I have never seen or heard of a reputable GHB piper prepared to bet his left one on passing the tone chamber blind test. Never. If the tone chambers were so important then every GHB pipe maker would be constructing them at a nominal capacity and producing audio measurements to prove just how effective they are. You will not find such, just like you will not find that unicorn.

I have done all the tests I can do that are within my ability. I use a software package called VOCEVISTA VIDEO. A German software used to analyse human voice, which is more complex than reeds. This software has a free demo version, is easy to learn to use and gives very comprehensive data illustrations and, the sales engineers are very helpful. I am plugging this software but I do not have shares or get a commission. It is a good product and for those that want to do their own audio tests, this product will do the job and let you print some pretty charts.

Cheers

G
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Good day

I will answer questions and criticisms, ( even the prickely ones) sent to me by email however, in the spirit of the forum, I feel it would be better to post them in the forum. I will not get weird about the ugly ones, too old and too obstinate. You can be shielded with a pseudonym as long as you register with a valid email. Thanks.

Yes, I do seem to be suggesting that some pipers/judges are judging sound with their eyes. I do not like that a contestant can be forced to comply with something visual to apese a subjective preference with no provable substance. When did you ever hear of a SP or uilleann piper criticized because the drones were not showing the nominal amount of hemp - never, that,s when, because they only care about the sound.


Benard's length/pitch calculation is based on the total length of the drone from the opening in the reed to the other end including end correction. It is not from the reed seat to the end of the drone. This is my understanding and seems correct when we tested it.

I did not invent subjectivity but I will live with it. I won't repeat the exact profanities in your statement but the answer is simple. Play the same song at the same volume on your car radio and ask your passenger to adjust the treble control to achieve the best sound. Take note of the setting number. Now do the same thing with 9 other passengers and note the settings of each. You will end up with a cluster around the 7 - 14 setting on a scale of 1 -20 with some lower and some higher. Now do it again a couple of weeks later, same song, same volume level. I have had very few make the same setting twice and in some cases, largely different yet, at the time, they all said they had made the setting for the best sound. If people cannot be consistent with their own preference...., well, you get the idea.

You are right, I will not change the Black Arts believers and I am not attempting to. I am only trying to make pipers, especially newbies, aware of some of the obstacles that may encounter in this noble craft.

Cheers

G
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Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Old African Black Wood (ABW) sounds better than new ABW.

Obviously, we would need to define “better”, the undefinable part of the statement, as there is no better, only what you may like better.

In my experience, I have found this statement used in two main circumstances, snobbery and commercial justification.

The snobbery has a useful place in the instrument market as it allows us to give reverence and acknowledgement to a marquis maker and their craftmanship and skill however, when it is used for one-upsmanship, to give the possessor suggested status over another musician, I feel it is a scourge.

The commercial justification is more understandable as an old ABW instrument from a marquis maker is finite so not everyone can have one. This can and will increase the value of a well designed and made old instrument from a marquis instrument maker and justifiably so. Some will use the age to justify spending a lot of dosh on an old instrument and suggest it is worth paying so much more because, being an old ABW instrument, it will sound so much better. Now we are staring down that rabbit hole.

The truth of the matter is, it’s not the wand but how you wave it.
We make uilleann chanters from old ebony, bubinga and mahogany, and when blind tested, some fine musicians preferred the more mellow, less edgy tone of the mahogany however, when told the wood was common old mahogany, views changed.

Find a highly respected, competent piper that would be prepared to do a blind sound quality test with a newly made set of quality pipes and an old set and the answer will become clear. No such person is going to want to have their pants pulled down. In the instrument world this question has been asked and tested many times with many instruments and it is overwhelmingly in the favour of the player, not the instrument’s age.

You may buy a vintage Porsche because it is a finite product and you like it. You at no time believe it is going to out perform a new current model Porsche but you will pay more than what a current Porsche would cost you for the vintage model. If you can, fine, why not. Same as a fine old instrument.

I have some billets of 30+ year old ABW which I only use to replace a missing or unrepairable section of old GHB pipes. I have never had a client tell me their old pipes no longer sound as good as they did because the pipes now have a section of newer ABW. Most are just so happy to be able to have a replacement part made from good quality dark "African" ABW. Much of the ABW sets I see today are only ABW by species as I don’t believe the wood came within cooeee of Africa. The wood is too chippy when turning and it does not have that oily ABW smell. The grain is also too spaced apart and looks like it was grown in a non-arid country.

My personal view of old ABW sounds better than new ABW, “The Emperor’s new clothes”.

Cheers

G
Glenarley
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Tell us something.: My family has been making pipes and reeds for over 25 years both Uillean and GHB. I am being asked to share pass on information on to other pipers in this open environment.

Re: How to leard to blow the bag

Post by Glenarley »

Sheepskin bags vibrate better and are more tonal than other leather bags

This is another example of the undefinable being stated as a fact. How does one measure the vibration and what exactly is “more tonal”.

I saw a Hardie pipe set tied into a sheepie and the entire set was suspended by a single wire attached to the bass drone stock. A tube supplying air at 30” H2o was attached to the blowpipe and the chanter stock was plugged.

The air was heated to human breath temp and the drones were locked and stable at 478 Hz, (ezee reeds).

The bag did not vibrate in a manner that could be measures such as a drum skin would be measured but tone could be heard at the bag. The test was deemed as void because as soon as the bag was held by hands, the tone was deadened at the bag. It was concluded that as the bag is forcefully held between the body and the arm, a conclusion on vibration and tone resulting from that vibration was, in my view, dismissed as bunkum. Back down that Black Arts rabbit hole I’m afraid. Like putting your palm on a tenor drum when you hit it, “Thunk”!

The other aspect that I feel debunked the tonal notion was the dressing used inside sheepies. Some use the basic glycerine based products, some use that thick greasy jello stuff and some use the hot mix pour out recipe. All were deemed to have a varied impact on any testing for vibration and tone.

I have personally heard a lot of claims about the magical abilities of sheepies to produce unique tonal properties however, I have never seen any test results or data supplied by the makers, or anyone else for that matter. I feel that it is just a case of sheeple following the leader's bell. I feel a comprehensive blind test would also support what I found.

When selecting a bag, it was found that the shape helped as it made the bag more comfortable to hold, depending on your size and span. Some gromet bags were clearly better designed for longevity than others but all seven bag makes tested worked and felt fine.

All the humidity aspects of GHB bags is covered in my video so I did not include such in this post.

Cheers

G
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