Concertina before button accordion?

[dwinterfield]

I must say anyhow that concertinas are good-looking instruments (except the cheap plastic ones).

Mine ain't ugly:

Very pretty. Is that from Wim?

Also Wim Wakker has moved Concertina Connection the US.

Harry Geuns always made the hybrids and is now making them under his name.

http://www.bandoneon-maker.com/concertinas.htm

[BoneQuint]

Very pretty. Is that from Wim?

Yep - click the floating concertina to see more views of it (and its brothers and sisters) on Wim's site.

Also Wim Wakker has moved Concertina Connection the US.

Yes, to eastern Washington state. I was going to mention that. But got hypnotized by the pretty concertina.

[Fergus]

Impressive videos. I really like your poliphonic abilities, being myself an ITM player never understood how to play farther than the ocassional drone

Cheers,

Fer

[rp3]

I play both of these types of free-reed instruments discussed and I have a couple of points here to share. As others have pointed out, concertinas are generally much more expensive than similar quality button accordions - sometimes three, four or more times as much for the same quality instruments. What hasn't been discussed adequately is the trash represented and sold as concertinas on the cheap end. I'm referring to the Chinese instruments and some similarly priced instruments coming from Eastern Europe. These are frequently sold on eBay. Then there are slightly more expensive instruments like the Stagi that are somewhat better, but not ideal. When bought from places like the Button Box that invest considerable time and effort to make them playable, these instruments can be made be suitable for initial training but will generally be outgrown quite quickly. The sad fact is that the concertina is a complex instrument and cannot be cheaply made without sidestepping the details necessary to make it properly playable. Consequently, to attempt to learn concertinas on something costing $100 or only a little more is pretty much doomed to fail. With the button accordion, the situation is only slightly improved and here too the investment in a better quality instrument even at the outset will pay dividends quickly in ease of learning and satisfaction with the operation of the instrument.

The earlier comment about Wim Wakker is mistaken from a geography point. Wim has moved to the USA but I can't remember where he now resides in the states. He has a website called ConcertinaConnection.com and does offer a low cost Anglo concertina called the Rochelle, that I understand is an isolated exception to my comment about Chinese-made instruments. This instrument is Chinese made to his specs using (per his website) some European parts. It is priced at $340 US. I would advise checking the Concertina.Net forums for information on this concertina since it may be the only one even close to your friend's budget. If this instrument does not check out to your satisfaction, and if your friend does not have at least $600 - $1,000 to spend, then I would suggest they look to other less-expensive types of instruments because they will be throwing their money away otherwise.

Good luck and I hope I haven't stepped on any important toes in the process of trying to give decent advice.

Ross Schlabach

[Azalin]

Hehe, if you want to see an expensive concertina, look at the one on my avatar. This Dipper (my little baby) would sell for US$9000 I'd say, maybe not now though with the shaky economy.

Anyhow, I guess when you pick an accordion and a concertina of equal quality, the concertina is going to be more expensive simply because there's a smaller market for them and most good ones are totally hand made. A concertina with accordion reeds would be closer to the prices of accordions, but as soon as you get into concertina reeds, which are totally hand made, the price sky rockets...

[bohemian]

There are box players who also play concertina such as John Williams and Billy Mac..

I don't think one preceeds the other.

As to the concertina types and the type of reed..

I am a former Jeffires owner.. 38 button... ( bought it for $300 US...correct $300 US)

I sold it to a fine player...

Since then I have played quite a few concertinas of all types...
While Jeffries still remains king with many I have played one Lachenal I much prefer.. and that owner traded a 38 button Jeffries for it ( and got back some cash)
Next I prefer the Button Box Morse Ceili.. and here I am certain I am in the minority..
I much prefer the accordion reed sound and resistance and modulation..

But that is from a box players perspective.


Assuming I had the cash to buy any concertina now available.. I would still buy the Button Box Ceili or perhaps a
Geuns or an Edgely, again because of the reed sound and playability.


A Button Box Ceili runs about $1950 new

a two row Button Accordion in that price range would be the Saltarelle Bouebe, and from personal experience it is no where near the quality of the Button Box Ceili.. in design, materials fit or finish

You would have to go up to a Castagnari Dinn II to get something on the order of the Ceili and that would set you back a considerably higher sum


I like the "idea" of a concertina.. small portable somewhat chromatic and dare I say "cute" ( gag)
however in actuality I am with some others that dont get the wee bit on the knee thing


For hoots and the concertina sound with huevos try a Castagnari Lilly in a C#/D or a B/C under $2K and at least you get some bass buttons and Castagnari quality... while not yet in the 'manly" category at least it is a serious handful

Pick something decent and just get on with it.... concertina or the box

PS I don't care for the standard concertina C/G pitched units... I prefer lower pitched G/D or even the baritone C/G...

[scheky]

You may be in the minority, but you aren't alone. I rather enjoy the sound of the Morse Ceili. It's not a case of taking what I can afford, but rather, it's the sound I actually like.

[StevieJ]

I don't know why you fellows are rabbiting on about concertinas when it became clear in the first few replies that what the OP's relative really wants is a button box. This is what I feared would happen when we let you guys in here when the forum was created.

[Azalin]

I don't know why you fellows are rabbiting on about concertinas when it became clear in the first few replies that what the OP's relative really wants is a button box. This is what I feared would happen when we let you guys in here when the forum was created.

Well, medical posts aren't allowed on this board, or I would have discussed the mental health state of someone who'd pick an accordion over a concertina.

[Rhadge]

I can't find so much info on this. Is a diatonic or a chromatic accordion preferrable?
I don't know the advantages or disadvantages of each type.
My relative would want to play several musical styles, not just celtic / irish.

Also, do accordions need retuning now and then?

And another thing.
When I was new to guitar, I was adviced to pay attention to certain things when trying out second-hand guitars, such as if the neck was curved or if the 12th fret sounded different if you touched it lightly compared to if you pressed it down entirely.
Any such advice for someone new to accordions, who wants to buy a second-hand. What to look for?

Thanks.

[StevieJ]

I can't find so much info on this. Is a diatonic or a chromatic accordion preferrable?
I don't know the advantages or disadvantages of each type.
My relative would want to play several musical styles, not just celtic / irish.

Well, maybe he or she should make up his or her mind exactly what styles. This would make giving advice a lot easier. BTW all this has been covered before in various threads on this forum, if you do a bit of searching.

If you want a wider range of opinions, ask your questions on the forums at http://info.melodeon.net/ where you will find people playing every type of diatonic and chromatic accordion in a variety of styles.

Also, do accordions need retuning now and then?

Yes. Professional box players probably get theirs tuned about every year - the rest of us can generally wait 3 or 4 years between tunings, or longer if you can put up with the results of not having them tuned. Bit like a piano. And like tuning a piano, tuning a box is a job for a professional BTW.

Any such advice for someone new to accordions, who wants to buy a second-hand. What to look for?

The main things would be 1) to try out all the notes and make sure they are all sounding correctly and not too out of tune and 2) test the box for leaks - will the bellows close easily when no notes are being sounded? If so, maintenance work (which may or not be expensive depending on the problem) is needed somewhere.

Oh, and 3) stay away from cheap Chinese-made boxes with phony Italian names.

Ah - 4) a bit like the action on guitars, on some accordions (particularly Hohners) the buttons disappear down the holes below the level of the fingerboard. Some people can live with this, others (such as myself) cannot. There are usually easy fixes to the problem though, such as putting a sheet of felt or closed-cell foam under the keys.

[Rhadge]

Thanks for the reply.
I think the music styles in question are mostly different kinds of folk music.
Balkan, nordic, celtic and such. So I guess (after doing a more thorough search) that a two row diatonic is preferrable.

So I guess the question mostly is what tuning to choose.
I read in another post that a B/C makes for a more flowing playing, while a C#/D is good for a more rhythmic approach. Is it really that ... (can't find the word, but something like "singular")?

[StevieJ]

If your family member wants to play a variety of different Western European folk music I would recommend they don't choose either B/C or C#/D but one of the "fourth-apart" systems such as G/C (favoured by musicians in France) or D/G (the standard choice in England and Australia/NZ), or possibly C/F (the Italian choice).

I don't know about Balkan music but I have a hunch a piano accordion might be the best thing for that.

Choose one of the fourth-apart systems and get a good tutor book to go with it. They will be generally easier to learn and certainly easier to make good use of the basses, which is much more important in other West European styles than it is in Irish playing.

You can play a lot of Irish music on either G/C or D/G, except that in the case of the G/C much of it won't be playable in the original key. Unless your relative intends to play with others, this isn't a problem. I would find G/C more attractive because it is pitched a fifth lower. The G row on a D/G box goes up into bat-sonar territory at the top of the range.

Good tutor books: go to http://buttonbox.com/learn-to-play-accordion.html and scroll down. You'll see Dave Mallinson's tutors for D/G and Norbert Pignol & Stephane Milleret's series for the G/C.

As I said earlier (and to another poster) you can get a lot more input and expertise on these "non-Irish" fourth-apart systems, as well as quite a bit on the "Irish" semitone-apart systems, at the forums on melodeon.net.

That's the long answer. The short one might be: stop agonizing, get a box, any box, and start having fun with it.

[Rhadge]

Thanks again.
I'll tell him to ask over at the melodeon forums.

I'm curious myself though, regarding that B/C and C#/D thing. Is B/C really for a more flowing style, while C#/D makes for more rhythmic playing?
Could be good to know, since I'm pretty ITM focused, although I don't play accordion.

[StevieJ]

I'm curious myself though, regarding that B/C and C#/D thing. Is B/C really for a more flowing style, while C#/D makes for more rhythmic playing?
Could be good to know, since I'm pretty ITM focused, although I don't play accordion.

Rhadge - I think this subject has been done to death on this forum and on others as well, and I don't feel inclined to go over all the arguments again. Have a look and you'll find them on here.

or type this exact string into google (don't type C#/D, google gets confused!): site:thesession.org C# B/C

Quick summary: your statement has a certain truth to it but when you start digging deeper things get more complicated. It depends very much on the key you are playing in, and even then, different tunes in the same key may have differing smoothness quotients depending on how they are put together.