Chiff and Fipple Forums

I didn't pick up on GreenWood's reference to "Normans" using "Bram" as short for "Abraham". Keen on making things French, ain't he? The use of the name "Bram" was, and still is to an extent, common in Britain and Ireland. Bram Stoker, for instance. Wikipedia seems to think the use of "Bram" for "Abraham" is mainly of Dutch origin, but examples given are all way later than Bram Stoker.

A young colleague of mine has just come back to the UK from a 3 week holiday in Texas. He said he was very confused over one thing in particular: in restaurants etc, he frequently wanted just water to drink with his meals. He just could not get anyone over there to understand what he was saying when he said the word 'water'. Apparently, in the end, he had to get his friend, who lives in Texas and with whom he was staying, to 'translate' it for him. Another young colleague in the office confirmed that he had had the exact same experience when visiting the States. I'm gobsmacked.

benhall.1 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:20 am He just could not get anyone over there to understand what he was saying when he said the word 'water'. Apparently, in the end, he had to get his friend, who lives in Texas and with whom he was staying, to 'translate' it for him.

Can we hear your colleague’s pronunciation?

oleorezinator wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:21 am

benhall.1 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:20 am He just could not get anyone over there to understand what he was saying when he said the word 'water'. Apparently, in the end, he had to get his friend, who lives in Texas and with whom he was staying, to 'translate' it for him.

Can we hear your colleague’s pronunciation?

I would like that, too, if it's possible, although to my ear British pronunciation of "water" seems pretty consistent wherever they come from. Back in my waiter days a fellow server, a Cornish lass, tried to understand how to pronounce "water" in the common Midwest US way, and with some effort I was able to get her to do it. That accomplishment under her belt, she promptly reverted to pronouncing it in her (to me typically British) way, and went off to do something else. I noticed, though, that she pronounced "grass" the way I would, rhyming with "hat".

An actual audio file would be best, if it can be done. I'll reiterate that rendering spoken English pronunciation in print can be problematic because both sides of the Pond use different orthographic conventions, and those differences can be remarkable; for example, "water" from a Brit will sound like "woe-tuh" to a Midwestern Yank, yet I'm always unsure that my way of spelling the sounds will be properly grasped outside the US. Similarly, if I'm to render actual Midwest US pronunciation of "water", I'm never sure that "waa-der" will be taken the way I mean it to be. After all, my speech is rhotic, whereas the majority of spoken British English, as I know it, is not. So for either side of the Pond to grasp the other's attempts at rendering sounds, we need to be at least somewhat familiar with each other's spelling and pronunciation conventions, and assume that we're probably going to get it wrong at least some of the time. Few of us are versed in IPA.

Some folks in the US really do have an issue with following British pronunciations, but it's certainly not all of us, and certainly not just Texans. I know one Minnesotan who says he can't understand British speech at all, and that includes RP. I don't get it, but there it is. It seems to me that part of his issue is pronunciation, and part of it speech patterns and rhythms. Brits and Yanks definitely do not approach spoken English in the same way, and especially if it's more on the colloquial side, the difference can be enough to tip the scales for some of us. For some reason it's easier for me, but even I've been left in the dust at times when things get rapid-fire and the accent is thick. Understanding each other's actual speech takes exposure and practice; print isn't enough. But at least we have print going for us.

Along the same lines I heard a bit on the radio during the week, while driving, I always hear bits on the radio while driving, about developments in pronunciation over time and the difference between English as spoken in Ireland and that in other countries.

Anyhow the presenter talked about time she spent working in the US. Her boss' s name was Peter and some point she asked a co-worker 'Is Peter in today?'. Her collegue hadn't a clue what she was talking about and asked in desperation what a peter was.

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:08 pmHer collegue hadn't a clue what she was talking about and asked in desperation what a peter was.

There's a joke in there somewhere.

A friend from South India has problems understanding spoken Midwest US English because while the accent's pretty consistent, pronunciation can vary from person to person, and the best advice I could offer was that he should ignore the vowels and focus on the consonants.

oleorezinator wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:21 am

benhall.1 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:20 am He just could not get anyone over there to understand what he was saying when he said the word 'water'. Apparently, in the end, he had to get his friend, who lives in Texas and with whom he was staying, to 'translate' it for him.

Can we hear your colleague’s pronunciation?

He pronounces it really clearly, in the way that everybody here in the UK pronounces it: "wor-ter". Apparently, people simply could not understand what he was saying. I don't know whether it's because of the vowel, or the consonant, or possibly both. Our vowel on the first syllable is radically different from any that an American would say - I don't think there's an equivalent sound in American English. And out 't' sounds are what must seem very exaggerated to American ears. And then the second syllable is more or less a schwah, but with hardly any emphasis, all the emphasis being on the first syllable.

I have to believe them - both my young colleagues have experienced this separately. It reminds me of when, years ago, I was trying to find somewhere to get a burger in Ennis, County Clare. I kept asking where I could get a burger, only to be met with blank looks. Finally, the light dawned in the eyes of one young me: "Oh! You mean a BOR-gah!"

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:13 pm Some folks in the US really do have an issue with following British pronunciations

It's not only folk in the US! British accents are still comically localised.

My most memorable experience was visiting a city less than 80 miles from where I grew up and asking for directions to a venue in the centre. We asked three different locals, all of whom knew the place and were happy to direct us, but my friend and I just couldn't understand what they were saying. We got one word, Mothercare, which was a chain store selling maternity and baby stuff, so we decided to go there and ask again in the hope of getting another word we could grasp. It took an hour to find somewhere a few minutes' walk away; I've honestly had more success trying to understand directions in French, when it was 30 years since my last lesson and I was rubbish at it anyway.

The differences are fading away now, but older people brought up in the town where I was born have a very different accent to that of the city next door. It's so pronounced that someone from outside the area would be able to separate them into two groups if they were asked to pay attention to their speech. They're only six miles apart.

benhall.1 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:46 am He pronounces it really clearly, in the way that everybody here in the UK pronounces it: "wor-ter".

Is that rhotic /r/ or non-rhotic?

benhall.1 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:46 am He pronounces it really clearly, in the way that everybody here in the UK pronounces it: "wor-ter".

Me saying "wor-ter" isn't how I say "water". I say it the way I would say "waugh-ter" (as in Evelyn - not waf-ter))

However, I don't think that gets us anywhere. Has anyone got the interest/patience/determination to use this https://itinerarium.github.io/phoneme-synthesis/ I tried getting the IPA for water in "British" and "American" from this: https://tophonetics.com/ but it wasn't very convincing. There must be good online resources for this, those were just first search results.

On local TV was an advertising segment with a British spokeswoman who introduced herself as "Bob". My double-take nearly gave me whiplash, and it took a little while before I realized that her name was actually "Barb".

I've probably told this story before, but it's worth telling again.

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:37 pmI realized that her name was actually "Barb".

If she had said her name was Barbara would the pronunciation of the first vowel have been remarkable?

david_h wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:43 pm

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:37 pmI realized that her name was actually "Barb".

If she had said her name was Barbara would the pronunciation of the first vowel have been remarkable?

Not to me. The complete name immediately brings the first syllable into context that I didn't otherwise have, and then I'm just listening to a British person speaking British English, rather than a woman with what sounds like, conventionally, a man's name. And she had to keep speaking a bit until the reality sank in, because I was so flummoxed by the "Bob" effect.

I don't usually watch Eastenders, but when I have, I've often found I had to ease into it. The Beeb's newscasters are easy as pie.

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:57 pm I don't usually watch Eastenders, but when I have, I've often found I had to ease into it.

Me too, but I guess not so much. Coronation Street - no problem.

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:57 pm The Beeb's newscasters are easy as pie.

They are now, when I was a kid it was really plummy RP. I still get cross when I can't tell from the context if the word is "really" or "rarely".

david_h wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:54 am Me saying "wor-ter" isn't how I say "water". I say it the way I would say "waugh-ter" (as in Evelyn - not waf-ter))

It's easier where I'm from. Watter, to rhyme with matter.