More "divided by a common language" stuff

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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

benhall.1 wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:05 pm I probably should have or linked to it, or something.
When pronunciation comes up, that would be good whenever possible; in this case, as a Left Ponder I would have liked to actually hear my fellow Yank's pronunciation, because part of the problem with transcriptions is that apart from IPA, there's no universal way; British and North American conventions of conveying speech sounds in writing are significantly different enough as to court confusion. In solely writing about pronunciation, neither of us can be expected to accurately hear what the other is trying to convey, at least not without some time spent at thinking about it and hoping one gets it right.

Here's a case in point: Around Shaka's time there was a personage by the name of Mboza Mboza, but since the Zulu language wasn't yet committed to writing, the British had to make do, so they phonetically rendered the name as "Bosomboser", according to their ear. That's a world of difference when you compare it to the Zulu spelling, but by British spelling convention the pronunciation comes close enough. Yet no American I know would pronounce that spelling in a British fashion unless prompted. Rather, we would automatically pronounce it as "Boozumbozer", and you must pronounce the R (well, most of us :wink: ). Nothing at all as the British would have intended. I don't know how we would have transcribed the name if we had been there in place of the British in those early days, but it would definitely have been different from the British version. That I can count on.

Then there are the French. In old renderings of Dakota names you will see an R used by the French instead of GH, KH, or their equivalents that we see now. And this is understandable. The famous name Mahpiyato (the H is pronounced, stress on the I, if you're keen to give it a try) would have been spelled in French fashion Marpiyato, and this no doubt causes confusion for the modern, uninformed Yank casual onlooker. Moreover there is no R (as English speakers think of it) in that language, and if you know that, it jars even more.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by david_h »

I guess most names were transferred into the writing of other languages by practical by people wanting to get on with communication, rather than committees agreeing which particular local Zulu/English/Dakota/French or whatever accents were being paired up. Formal English has abandoned Peking, Calcutta, Bombay etc as being incorrect and maybe annoying for natives (who of course speak English with their own accent). But they may have been quite close for the people who were first talking to one another.

Edit. (and still off-topic but responding to Nano's comment). An example from today's Guardian "Kiribati (pronounced Ki-ri-bahss, a local translation of “Gilberts”, its name under British colonial rule) " I did know how to pronounce Kiribabti, and that Kiritimati (formerly Christmas Island) sounds very like Christmas. But Gilberts I never would have worked out.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by GreenWood »

benhall.1 wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:38 am
GreenWood wrote: Which gives French the lead I think
No, I don't think that "gives the French the lead" - not in terms of where the word comes from in English. It comes, ultimately, from the Greek, via Latin, with, in a minority of opinions, as far as one can tell, a small amount of influence from the French. However, since the word was used from Roman times in Britain, I think we can discount the French influence.
All dictionaries say late latin, at which point Britain had about ended Roman rule. Whether much latin remained in Britain after 400AD is disputed, previous language possibly remained, but then all merged under Anglo-Saxon rule. Late latin use seems to be regarding papal supremacy or similar. Anyway, it was not used in Britain until :

"First recorded in 1400–50; late Middle English, from Middle French monarche, monarch, from Late Latin monarcha, from Greek mónarchos “sole ruler, monarch”; see mon-, -arch"

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/monarch

"The first known usage of monarch in English occurs circa 1450, where it is written in Lydgate and Burgh’s Secrees of old Philosoffres, “Sovereign of Renown, Which as monarch of every Region, Gave me this Charge.” A little over a century later, we can see the definition expanding beyond a person, into a non-literal sense, in Sir Philip Sidney’s 1581 An Apology for Poetry, where he writes, “To be moved to do that which we know, or to be moved with desire to know….Now there in of all Sciences..is our Poet the Monarch.” "

i.e. under Henry VI who was also king of france, cadet Plantagenet

In france

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/monarque

1370 or earlier.


Earliest date in Latin I don't know though. So via latin to french to english in my opinion.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

GreenWood wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:02 pm So via latin to french to english in my opinion.
No, you can't ignore the Greek in this just because a dictionary - which is not infallible - does so out of what appears to be a parsimony of ink or keystrokes. The word is Greek; it has no Latin origin, but was borrowed into that language, so what we may rightly say is that Latin to French was the trajectory of the word into English. Because English has also borrowed and beaten it to fit, we may conventionally call "monarch" an English word (just as "monarque" is French), but without the Greeks, no one would have it.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by GreenWood »

Nanohedron wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:22 pm
GreenWood wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:02 pm So via latin to french to english in my opinion.
No, you can't ignore the Greek in this just because a dictionary - which is not infallible - does so out of what appears to be a parsimony of ink or keystrokes. The word is Greek; it has no Latin origin, but was borrowed into that language, so what we may rightly say is that Latin to French was the trajectory of the word into English. Because English has also borrowed and beaten it to fit, we may conventionally call "monarch" an English word (just as "monarque" is French), but without the Greeks, no one would have it.
I didn't mean to exclude the greeks, I just thought that was understood as origin, from Ben's post.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

GreenWood wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:04 pmI just thought that was understood as origin, from Ben's post.
I see.

FWIW, I know a fellow who's taking French - his first go at a language other than his native English - and he's been blown away by the revelation of how much a role French and Latin loanwords play in English; before, he really had no way of knowing this, much less how such English words get their meaning. Now if he sees an unknown word, he's a lot more able to closely guess its meaning, be it French or English. It's as if a door's been unlocked for him.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by david_h »

Nanohedron wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:22 pm...(just as "monarque" is French)...
With the stress where?
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

david_h wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:26 am
Nanohedron wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:22 pm...(just as "monarque" is French)...
With the stress where?
Nice try. :wink:
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by GreenWood »

Nanohedron wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:43 pm
GreenWood wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:04 pmI just thought that was understood as origin, from Ben's post.
I see.

FWIW, I know a fellow who's taking French - his first go at a language other than his native English - and he's been blown away by the revelation of how much a role French and Latin loanwords play in English; before, he really had no way of knowing this, much less how such English words get their meaning. Now if he sees an unknown word, he's a lot more able to closely guess its meaning, be it French or English. It's as if a door's been unlocked for him.
Definitely. Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Catalan (with Catalan closer to french) are all close enough to be fully understandable when read if knowing just one, and after assimilating pronunciation (i.e. being able to separate the words from a flow of speech) when being spoken. There are some easy mistakes to make into the bargain though.

French is different, I also speak french fluently. The latin root of the words are the same as the above often, but spelt and pronounced quite differently. Syntax or phrasing is often different also. Simple example of a close word, a tree


Arvore Pt.
Arbol Sp.
Albero It.
Arbre Ct. @Pronounced Arbara
Arbre Fr. @Pronounced Aghrbrgh


So someone speaking french just won't be understood in Spain. When you find common words in different sounding languages, like your friend was saying, it really makes you wonder how that all happened.

What I find amazing is ancient words. Spanish if I remember is around 15% pre-latin. That would be Iberian or Celt-Iberian. Many placenames are traceable to pre-roman. That is two thousand years or more of local aural tradition that survived various new languages.


I think language is like a paint palet, it both allows picturing a certain way, as well as forming the identity/perception of the speaker. So old words are going back a long way to ancient sentiment or understanding . That is an example of why poetry usually doesn't translate well, because the meanings that are carried by both vocabulary and sound are different between languages. When I speak in a different language it changes my perceptions, thinking, and sentiment. Really each language is a whole different world, a different culture, conversation, or understanding.

People should learn at least one other language if they are able to, because that provides contrast. Own language is a haven, learning another can be left as an "exterior", sort of like a translation for others. It is only when you start to have to speak amongst native speakers that it really gets learned properly, because it all starts to take on a real character that way, that of those who speak it, with all the subtleties that exist . That is often a very big step, because a person is basically helpless to the other in that circumstance. What once sounded like strange mumblings by unusual people eventually takes on a whole new meaning though, and I could not describe how that feels properly. The understanding often extended as you try to speak amongst native speakers is very reassuring. If in a foreign country there is opportunity to learn just as much of the language as anyone might choose, for free and for fun.

Own language own world is always there to return to at choice... that will start to look as seen by a foreigner to a small degree once long in another country , and own locality will likely notice that there is something a bit foreign about anyone when they return, until they settle back in fully at least.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

Okay, here's one: In Minnesota we have a town named Braham - an English word to be sure. I'm sure it's not the only Braham in the Left Pond lands, not by a long shot - but it's ours (did a gig there once for their annual Pie Festival, and needless to say the town smelled wonderful), and there are mainly 2 ways we pronounce it, with mine seeming to be very much in the minority: "Bray-um". Just about everyone else in MN seems to pronounce it "Bram". I refuse, but I don't press the issue beyond steadfastly sticking with my pronunciation on the rare occasion it might cross my lips. They probably don't even notice. But I'm guessing that wherever you go in the Anglosphere, those two pronunciations will be to the fore. My question is, how would a Brit pronounce it? Either-or, or is there only one permissible way in all of the UK?
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

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Nanohedron wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:53 pm a town named Braham - an English word to be sure.
If it was a name of Saxon origin pronounced a you do I think it might be spelled Brayham. Spelled as it is I wouldn't be confident.

From the four online gazetteer entries my gleanings from a web search are:

In Suffolk - "Braham Hall in Cattawade was a sub-manor of Brantham. In the 13th century it was owned by William de Braham. " :D

In North Yorkshire - "BRAIM HALL, or Braham Hall, a farm-house in the township and parish of Spofforth, 3 miles S. of Knaresborough."

In Essex - "4/103 Braham Hall, (Formerly 11/4/86 known as Bream Hall)" [Essex]

In Cambridgeshire - "Moat at the S end of the parish in the home field of Brame or Braham Farm. A feeble rectangular earthwork "

So maybe a Norman French name that the locals in three disparate places pronounced something like braim or bream. Though the other being in a place called Brantham (which does look like a Saxon in form) is interesting.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

I geek out on this stuff.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

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To clarify "Spelled as it is I wouldn't be confident." was my answer to your question. I would wonder about sounding the h when preceded by a vowel. I have heard it sounded in Babraham, though I am not sure I have heard it said with a local Cambridgeshire accent so that may be wrong.

I'm interested that the 'ham' is unstressed and the h silent in both of your local pronunciations. It's almost always that way here when preceded by consonant (Birmingham, Tottenham etc) but its not unusual to hear it, incorrectly, with the h and stressed from left-ponders. How do you folks pronounce your Birmingham? Did the founders of Braham bring their pronunciation with them?
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by Nanohedron »

david_h wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:54 am To clarify "Spelled as it is I wouldn't be confident." was my answer to your question.
I gathered as much, and thanks for the confirmation.
david_h wrote:I would wonder about sounding the h when preceded by a vowel. I have heard it sounded in Babraham, though I am not sure I have heard it said with a local Cambridgeshire accent so that may be wrong.
I would intuitively pronounce the H in Babraham.
david_h wrote:How do you folks pronounce your Birmingham? Did the founders of Braham bring their pronunciation with them?
In the US, place name pronunciations are all over the map, for they're artifacts of locality rather than any sense of "national" American English pronunciation (there is none when it comes to our place names). Officially, one pronounces the "ham" in the case of Alabama's city (cf. the 3rd verse to the song Sweet Home Alabama), but we might have another Birmingham elsewhere that is pronounced more akin to the British fashion. Norfolk, VA? A Brit may breathe easy, but that might not hold for another Norfolk elsewhere in the US. TBH, I'm intuitively inclined to fully pronounce the "folk" bit, but interestingly, incline to the British pronunciation of Birmingham; I have to remind myself to pronounce the "ham". That wouldn't be the case for most Yanks though, I believe. We slaughter "Cornwall", after all, and it drives poor Ben crazy. With US place names, the best you can do is take your stab at it in good faith; only the parochial boor will laugh - and shame on them - at an innocent outsider's stumble, because there are no rules. A lot of Yanks pronounce Louisville "incorrectly" - it should be "Loo-a-vull" in the Kentuckian, yet most of us will pronounce it "Louie-vill", and hardly care about it. Bexar, TX owes its pronunciation remotely to the Spanish, if you think pronouncing it "bear" - as Bexarians do - is indicative. Pierre, SD is locally pronounced "peer", and is the state shibboleth. Most Yanks don't know that, either. Puyallup, WA is pronounced nothing as it's spelled: "pyu-allup". How did that happen? It's lost to the mists of time. I suspect that no one in little, piesome Braham has any idea, or record, of the name's deeper provenance.
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Re: More "divided by a common language" stuff

Post by GreenWood »

Bray-um sounds posh.....

I think in England it would be Bra as in Bram and Ham (or shortened to Bra-Am) , unless from more upper class south or London etc.

"English: habitational name from Braham in Spofforth (Yorkshire) or Brantham in Suffolk (recorded as Braham in 1198). Braham in Yorkshire was probably named with the Old English personal name Brahha + hām ‘homestead’. Brantham in Suffolk means ‘the steep homestead’ from Old English brant ‘steep’ + hām. Irish and Scottish: shortened form of Gaelic Mac an Bhreitheamhan ‘son of the judge’. "

from Ancestry dot com.

Brahha (and Braham) I saw noted as from

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahhingas

somewhere. Also from bram meaning "broom" ham .

Braham, a railway village in Stanchfield, was named by officers of the Great Northern railway company.

Minnesota geographic names; their origin and historic significance by Upham, Warren, 1850-1934
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