Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark

[emmline]

I submit that people who worship Gid can't answer definitively the following questions:
1. Why did God create man?
2. Why did God create man with lack of wisdom?
3. Why does he want to be worshipped?
4. why does he set rules bearing horrific punishment when he knows man is "sinful" and is bound to break them?
5. In this context why did he create man to be sinful? and then punish him for it?
6. what does heaven really look like? What do you do there? Stare at God lovingly all day long?

There is interesting discussion of these questions in the Conversations With God books by Neale Donald Walsch. Though accepting NDW's interpretations wouldn't make you anything resembling a Christian (as commonly defined,) he presents some ideas which sit well with me.

[Blackwood]

Missy,
Thanks for your reply.

Isn't that cherry picking? I pick only the things I like and I choose not to believe in the things that i don't like (ie that are counter to your value system)?

Remember the New Testament is a collection of writings that were selected, approved and guarded by the Church for hundreds of years. The texts that were not selected were destroyed (a la Communism, Nazism of burning/destroying books because they did not conform)

The Gnostic Gospels were some of these writings that were found by accident. The early Chirstian church was ruthless in the establishment of dogma and the pursuit of compliance. The later Church was not any better with Inquisition etc. While I gather from your response that you certainly agree that the Church is flawed, I question then why to place faith in a belief system that was carefully manipulated, edited, scripted and ruthlessly executed by flawed people who never met, spoke with, or personally witnessed any of the events surroundig Jesus.

The evidence would never stand a day in a court of law and given it's incredibly high claims it would not even be worth the rumor would it not be for the powerful cultural historical role in our society as a result of a message controlled for hundreds of years by the church/state.

Isn't it interesting that kids generally believe as their parents do? Of course they do, it is the mark of culture. That's why children born in a Muslim culture believe in the Koran and kids born into a Christian culture believe in the bible, etc.

How much conscious choice does one then really have? It is very difficult to free yourself of your instilled beliefs and think critically and come to your own conclusion....

[missy]

Blackwood, I went through a "questing" period, and am still not quite satisfied. But it's not high up on the priority list right now to spend the amount of time I would need to delve into things like the gnostics. I am familiar with the whole idea of what was purposely left out of the New Testament.
On your thoughts about kids and beliefs - both of mine were raised Catholic (although their father isn't). I felt it was important to give them some type of belief system, but have also always stressed that what they believe is entirely up to them. The oldest has gotten away from the Church - mainly because of the abuse scandals, and because he has a problem with me not being able to receive Communion (I'm divorced and remarried). The youngest will probably do his own thing sooner or later - he'd make a good Buddhist!

[izzarina]

A long time ago, when the Earth was green,

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.....

Oh no....I've had to watch that a million times as of late. Even my 2 yo goes around "singing" the Darth Vader theme music now (or Garf Vader, if you ask him)

[fancypiper]

Blackwood, I went through a "questing" period, and am still not quite satisfied.

Every religious leader that I have ever talked to has doubted their faith (I would infer that is what y'all mean with the term "questing") at one time or another during their career.

[SteveShaw]

On your thoughts about kids and beliefs - both of mine were raised Catholic (although their father isn't). I felt it was important to give them some type of belief system, but have also always stressed that what they believe is entirely up to them.

Bit of a bugger, this one. I was raised a Catholic too, developed fault-lines at about 14, still managed to be married in a Catholic church at 25, finally broke away at about 28. Am now a very confident and confirmed atheist. But it took me a very long time to shake off all that awful Catholic guilt - it cast a long shadow over my life (all that masturbation earned me a million years in hell for a start! I should have borrowed Christy Moore's barbed wire underpants! ). I'd like to think that my parents, had they been a bit wiser, might have deliberately NOT given me a "belief system" and then exposed me to real, impartial knowledge ("education" - y'know?) about other folks' belief systems so that I could judge for myself whether I wanted to hitch my horse to any, or none, of the available wagons. But they didn't do that because (a) the Catholic church has very strict rules about how, if you marry within the Church, you should bring up your children - VERY strict - and (b) the life-long teachings of their church "persuaded" them that it was not a very good idea to not bring us up as Catholics (there are sanctions that could have had - er - eternal implications...).

Most big religions are a bit insecure about losing their adherents.....

Steve

[missy]

Steve - I understand your point of view.
I've always been a "weird" Catholic, anyway. My dad wasn't actually Baptized until 10 days before he died. Lots of reasons for that I won't go into here, but suffice it to say that no one I grew up with knew my dad wasn't Catholic, except that he didn't go to communion.
The priest that was our pastor left the priesthood and married the nun that was our principal when I was in 6th grade.
I had a nun in highschool teach us about birth control (no matter what the Church says, they won't pay for your kids) and Eastern religions.
And, as I said, I am divorced and remarried.

So - my kids have been brought up in anything BUT a traditional Catholic home. They've also attended services in many other Christian denominations.

[Jack]

Regarding Catholicism and being raised Catholic, I think it's sometimes necessary to place emphasis on the difference between cultural Catholicism and religious Catholicism. Even though they often go together, they do not necessarily. It's entirely possible to have one's whole entire family and history tied up in the culture of the Catholic Church but not believe in Christ as Lord.

Likewise, it's quite possible to be culturally Jewish yet not believe in the existance of God (ala Jim Stone). Or culturally Muslim, Hindu, etc.

I submit that people who worship Gid can't answer definitively the following questions:
1. Why did God create man?
2. Why did God create man with lack of wisdom?
3. Why does he want to be worshipped?
4. why does he set rules bearing horrific punishment when he knows man is "sinful" and is bound to break them?
5. In this context why did he create man to be sinful? and then punish him for it?
6. what does heaven really look like? What do you do there? Stare at God lovingly all day long?

I could add more but the basic notion is the following:

Why worship a supposed God whose motivations they know so little about with no understanding what the promise actually holds or means?
Is it faith or is it blind faith?

I submit that we as humans don't have to know all the answers. All faith is blind in some sense or another, by its being faith. If we knew all the answers faith would be impossible--if I knew for a fact that there was a frog under a rock, I wouldn't be required to have faith that it was there. If I don't conclusively know that, however I can choose to have faith that it's there (or not there). That's what faith in God is for most people, except that God isn't a frog.

[spittin_in_the_wind]

I have never seen a horse. Should I not believe in their existance because I have never seen one?

You've never seen a horse?! What, do you live in some kind of alter-Appalachia or something?!

Robin

[Jack]

I have never seen a horse. Should I not believe in their existance because I have never seen one?

You've never seen a horse?! What, do you live in some kind of alter-Appalachia or something?!

Robin

Actually, I'm blind.

Ok, no I'm not. I've seen lots of horses (and ridden them, too) but I was just trying to make a point...

[Charlene]

I was going to point out that Shel Silverstein wrote The Unicorn, but I see someone beat me to it. It was the Irish Rover's biggest hit but not their only one. The group still performs, although with only 3 of the original members (and one is likely to retire this year).

When I was a kid it was the story of the flood that almost convinced me of the truth of the bible when I read that the Native Americans had a legend like that also. Then later on I started thinking - how do we know what the Native Americans really believed?

We know because the stories were told to a white man and written down.

What white men came in contact with Native Americans who could write and had the time to write down stories?

Mostly Jesuit priests.

In any culture there are people who will tell someone what they want to hear in order to get a reward. I figure the Native Americans figured out real fast that if they told the priest stories about plural gods or spirits, they were told that they were damned and sent home, but if they listened to the religious stories and then said "we have a story like that too" and retold a bible story but put in Native American twists, then they were rewarded with blankets and food. And we (decendants of Europeans) tend to think that once something is written down that is THE TRUTH.

I don't think there was an Ark or that dinosaurs were on it. I also don't think they will ever clone a dinosaur like in Jurassic Park.

[Lorenzo]

"Goodness" actually doesn't have anything to do with our final destiny; according to the Bible anyway. Where we spend eternity is based only on our relationship with God through Christ. Not "good deeds."

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Jack]

"Goodness" actually doesn't have anything to do with our final destiny; according to the Bible anyway. Where we spend eternity is based only on our relationship with God through Christ. Not "good deeds."

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Do you believe that having faith is a "work?"

[rodfish]

"Goodness" actually doesn't have anything to do with our final destiny; according to the Bible anyway. Where we spend eternity is based only on our relationship with God through Christ. Not "good deeds."

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There are several places in the NT where a writer, (usually the apostle Paul) mentions rewards. (Eph. 6:8 as an example) However those rewards are not synomynous with heaven. Just what they are exactly, I do not know, but the NT certainly indicates quite clearly that the gift of eternal life comes through faith in Christ, not works.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast."
Eph. 2:8-9 NIV

Be well,

Rod

[rodfish]

Hey Rodfish,

I think your description above is quite representative of what I heard from many Christians, quite accurate in terms of interpretation.

This is exactly what is so disturbing in terms of the lack of logic that I see in the entire concept.

Permit me to simplify it to illustrate the point:

1. God makes Man incomplete and creates Eve afterwards (we don't know why he made them)
2. God has made man and woman lacking a certain understanding of the world (difference of good and evil) - why? we don't know.
3. God sets up a rule not eat from the apple of wisdom ( he apparently wants them to stay ignorant - why we don't know)
4. They break the rule - he must have known they would break the rule ( they were created by him so he knew their flaws - why did he create them with flaws?) otherwise he would not be all knowing and therefore not a God. If he knew they would break the rule he knew he would decide to purposely banish them and cause pain and suffering - his decision, not anybody elses.
5. He decides he will punsih all future generations for the "misdeeds" of two, ie, no paradise and pain of child labor for all. Nice.
6. He demands worship above all, if people stray he destroys them although he knows they will stray. see Noah story God wipes out humanity. How many hundreds of thousands, millions, we don't know.
7. He takes on human form to "die for our sins" why does he have to take that step? Was this the only method available in a universe where he sets the rules?
8. His form of communication is abysmally selective. He appears and speaks directly to a few people only. He leaves the rest of humanity struggling to understand his meassge as is evidenced by the hundreds and hundreads of different interpretations, religions, and congregations.
9. You can be bad as heck as long as you decide to worship him on your deathbed and you will be saved. You can be good, but not acknowledge him and be tortured. Nice. Of course the comment was made that our hearts are depserately wicked. Why? If God made us he is responsible. I never met anyone who walked around saying he is striving to be desperately wicked and is trying to be hard to be even mopre wicked.
10. In summary he made us without wisdom, he made us prone to fail, he made us "sinful", he is angry, he is vengeful, he prefers some over others (his chosen people), he changes his mind, he kills, he causes suffering, etc etc etc.

I could go on but my basic point hopefully is illustrated.

Christians worship God because they love Him

Why? Why is he deserving of Love? Because he is powerful and holds the keys to life and death? I seriously do not understand the logic.

I submit that people who worship Gid can't answer definitively the following questions:
1. Why did God create man?
2. Why did God create man with lack of wisdom?
3. Why does he want to be worshipped?
4. why does he set rules bearing horrific punishment when he knows man is "sinful" and is bound to break them?
5. In this context why did he create man to be sinful? and then punish him for it?
6. what does heaven really look like? What do you do there? Stare at God lovingly all day long?

I could add more but the basic notion is the following:

Why worship a supposed God whose motivations they know so little about with no understanding what the promise actually holds or means?
Is it faith or is it blind faith?

Hey Blackwood:
Sorry its taken me so long to respond but I got called in to work to put out a fire, and ended up traveling across the country.

You have a lot of questions; some good, and others not so good. (IMHO)And by that I simply mean that they seem to stem from some type of deep anger that may possibly cloud your otherwise pretty clear thinking.

I won't claim to have all the answers. I'm not sure that anyone does, and the answers I can give probably won't be answers you would accept or agree with. However, I'll take a shot at a couple and see how it goes.

1. Why did God create man? First of all, for His own glory. Since we're commanded to glorify Him in Scripture, it follows that that is one of the reasons for which we were created. 1 Chron 16:28-29
"Ascribe to the LORD, O families of nations, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength, ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name." NIV

It's also probable that He created us for fellowship. (I'n not implying here that He needs fellowship.) Passages like Micah 6:8 seem to indicate that He wants to have a relationship with man: "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." NIV

Just prior to His crucifixion Christ prayed that His followers might have a special type of fellowship with the Father: John 17:20-21 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. NIV

There are undoubtedly many other reasons why God created man, identified in Scripture, but these are just two; for His glory, and for fellowship.

2. Why did God create man with a lack of wisdom? Possibly because it's one of the gifts God likes to give individually. (not as a "blanket" blessing upon all of mankind.) James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." NIV

3. Why does He want to be worshipped? This is an outstanding question! And I want to be careful in answering because I don't want to come across as sounding like I know what God wants, or why He wants something. But the Bible indicates that He occupies a lofty posiiton, that no other being holds. 1 Chron 29:11 "Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O LORD, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all." NIV
Man's place however isn't so lofty; we are part of His creation. But most of us are unwilling to admit that. We're unwilling to recognize who God is and what He has done. Worship, is the admission of the worshipper that God is the creator and owner of everything, and places us at His feet where we belong.
It's God's desire that we acknowledge Him for who He is, while simultaneously acknowledging who we are. We can do that through worship.
This may seem (to us) egotistical on God's part; to want to be worshipped; but if He is a perfect being, who desires the truth to be known and practiced, then it only follows that He would want His creation to acknowledge the truth of who He is and what He has done. You could even argue that it's for our own good, to do so.

4. Why does he set rules bearing horrific punishment when he knows man is "sinful" and is bound to break them?
Any parent can give you a good answer to this one. We set rules to protect our children and hopefully to help them grow into responsible adults.
When you mention "rules" I assume you're referring to the Law of the OT. What is often called the Mosaic Law. (which includes the 10 commandments.) It seems clear that God gave the law so that His people would know how He expected them to live in relation to Him as well as each other.
But, as you mentioned, He also knew that they would not be able to keep the law, because of their sinful nature, so He also, at the same time gave them the means by which they could be forgiven; the sacrificial system. Which, by the way was simply a precurser to the final perfect sacrifice of Christ.
Where there is no law, there is no understanding of what sin is. There is no real idea of how God wants us to live. But, if you are going to establish rules, there must be penalties for breaking those rules, or they mean nothing. Thankfully, God established a way to be forgiven for breaking the rules. Why? Maybe so we could learn from our mistakes?

5. In this context why did he create man to be sinful? and then punish him for it?
I would argue that God did Not create man to be sinful. He created man with the freedom to be sinful, and there is a difference. Man had the free will to choose and he chose to sin, knowing the punishment that was to come.

6. What does heaven really look like? What do you do there? Stare at God lovingly all day long?
I sense a bit of good natured sarcasm in this question but I'll try to answer it anyway. The Bible only gives us glimpses of heaven as it exists right now, so I can't really say what it is like. Passages like Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel 1-3 and Revelation 4 are just a couple of those places. Just the barest glimpse of what heaven is like.
However, Revelation chapter 21 indicates that at the end of this age, heaven and earth will be made new, so the glimpses we're given of heaven as it exists now don't really describe what is to come. There is a description of the capitol city given there, which is pretty amazing. Read Revelation chapters 21 and 22 and you'll see what I mean.
As for what we'll be doing for all eternity?
Yes, I believe those in heaven will spend some of their time gazing at Christ and God in loving awe and wonder, but I think there will be more. I mean after all, He created the wonders of this earth and the majesty of the universe. The world itself holds incredible wonders for our enjoyment, can you imagine what God has planned for the joy of His family for eternity? No, of course you can't. Actually, the Bible says you can't: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"- NIV 1 Cor 2:9

Whew!

Be well,

Rod