Bush: Intelligent Design Should Be Taught

[Bloomfield]

jGilder will forgive me (I hope) if I point out that each of his sentences is wrong. Well, except the one about what he thinks about Cynth. "Where did we come from?" is not the only place where science and religion diverge, because science and religion may diverge much earlier or later, depending on your view point and on whether you are asking about methodology or "results." There is no single religious answer, and if jGilder is talking about Judeo-Christianity, as I suspect he is, there has been a religious answer for at least three thousand years, but Intelligent Design is an invention of the past two or three decades (or the past two or three centuries, if you include certain predecessors). There is no scientific answer, since the concept of "answer" doesn't exist like that in science. Evolution is a theory not incompatible with (most) observation. What are are "evidence" and "fact" anyway, in science, and is there a difference? It's not true that "religion isn't supposed to be taught in public school." It is true that the Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion. Whether that's the same as "teaching religion in public school" is a tricky question (usefully discussed I thought in the first part of this thread).

Anyway. After that comment the thread went down the drain (despite such pearls as susnfx being unable to find my previous post...)

I'm sorry to have been the bottom of the sink for your discussion, but I still stand by my statement. I think the error might actually be in your interpretation.

By "intelligent design" I believe we're referring to the concept of creationism.

Actually, not quite. Creationism is the belief that the world was, um, created. A belief, not a theory. Intelligent Design is a recent fad (pardon) that states that a form of creationism can expressed as a scientific theory. Because, in this view, I.D. is a theory rather than a belief, it can be taught in science class, goes the argument. Opponents of I.D. (such as I) argue that I.D. is not a theory (because "theory" is actually a very specific concept).

[Jack]

If this has been posted previously in these 28 pages and you've already seen it, please accept my apologies.

"Scientists' belief in God varies by discipline"

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8916982/

[Blackwood]

"Scientists' belief in God varies by discipline"

i venture to guess that this study is based on US scientists? It doesn't say, but no Western country has such a high % of religious believers as the US...

[Jack]

"Scientists' belief in God varies by discipline"

i venture to guess that this study is based on US scientists? It doesn't say, but no Western country has such a high % of religious believers as the US...

It doesn't say where the scientists come from.

Here is the article for those who don't want to click on the link. The link wasn't working right earlier anyway so I will just post the article.

About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion.

Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found.

The opposite had been expected.

Nearly 38 percent of natural scientists -- people in disciplines like physics, chemistry and biology -- said they do not believe in God. Only 31 percent of the social scientists do not believe.

In the new study, Rice University sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund surveyed 1,646 faculty members at elite research universities, asking 36 questions about belief and spiritual practices.

"Based on previous research, we thought that social scientists would be less likely to practice religion than natural scientists are, but our data showed just the opposite," Ecklund said.

Some stand-out statistics: 41 percent of the biologists don't believe, while that figure is just 27 percent among political scientists.

In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.

"Now we must examine the nature of these differences," Ecklund said today. "Many scientists see themselves as having a spirituality not attached to a particular religious tradition. Some scientists who don't believe in God see themselves as very spiritual people. They have a way outside of themselves that they use to understand the meaning of life."

Ecklund and colleagues are now conducting longer interviews with some of the participants to try and figure it all out.

© 2005 LiveScience.com. All rights reserved.

[Flyingcursor]

"Scientists' belief in God varies by discipline"

i venture to guess that this study is based on US scientists? It doesn't say, but no Western country has such a high % of religious believers as the US...

Have you been looking at my encyclopedia?


Interesting survey Cran but like all surveys I just can't trust the source. My skepticism of surveys still holds.

[Lorenzo]

You'll have to admit that when religion gets involved in explaining science, the discussion is bound to be anything but dull and creative. ID may be a science alright...weird science that it, or pseudoscience. ID is more of a metaphysical approach to science. In the relgious world, apparently good science includes political science and science fiction. No matter how strong the scientific evidence, there will always be a creative way to keep "God" above it.

Is ID really something from the religious right, because it doesn't name a creator? In ID, any alien could be God. It seems like more of an attempt to dress a mythological figure up in a white lab coat.

[Tyler]

One thing I think we all can agree on.....
There are many foreign objects that should definately not be shoved up ones nose (i.e. long pencils, cooking untensils, small household pets...),

Intelligent Design is one of them.

[missy]

There are many foreign objects that should definately not be shoved up ones nose (i.e. long pencils, cooking untensils, small household pets...),

I thought it was not to put beans in your ears:

My mommy said not to put beans in my ears!
Beans in my ears! Beans in my ears!
My mommy said not to put beans in my ears!
B-E-A-N-S in my ears!

Now why would I want to put beans in my ears?
Beans in my ears! Beans in my ears!
Now why would I want to put beans in my ears?
B-E-A-N-S in my ears!

You can't hear the teacher (your parents) with beans in your ears!
Beans in your ears! Beans in your ears!
You can't hear the teacher (your parents) with beans in your ears!
B-E-A-N-S in your ears!

Hey, Charlie, let's go and put beans in our ears!?
Beans in our ears? Beans in our ears!
Hey, Charlie, let's go and put beans in our ears!?
B-E-A-N-S in our ears!

WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? Let's put beans in our ears!
Beans in our ears? Beans in our ears!
WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? Let's put beans in our ears!
B-E-A-N-S in our ears!

YOU'LL HAVE TO SPEAK UP, I'VE GOT BEANS IN MY EARS!
Beans in your ears? Beans in my ears!
YOU'LL HAVE TO SPEAK UP, I'VE GOT BEANS IN MY EARS!
B-E-A-N-S in her ears!

[Tyler]

There are many foreign objects that should definately not be shoved up ones nose (i.e. long pencils, cooking untensils, small household pets...),

I thought it was not to put beans in your ears:

(Never heared that one...)
Does the president have beans in his ears?
Cause he don't seem to hear...
Naw, he's got bean's in his a**
cause he's just full of gas!

[peeplj]

Six Days
By Gwen Knighton
© 1999

Mama goes to circle, Grandma goes to mass,
My teacher's got the Ten Commandments posted in our class.
And when we study science, I don't know what to think,
This creation science story sounds so out of sync.

In six days, this god made the earth, all creatures, man and beast.
And he knows all about them from the greatest to the least.
They sprang straight from his mind, in just a hundred and forty-four hours,
The rocks, the rivers, and the fish, the forests and the flowers.

That's what they teach us in school,
They say god made the universe.
They tell us that we're not related to beasts,
But my Dad says my school runs in reverse.

The prayer group meets in the cafeteria after our lunch break.
I sit out on the fringes with the spazzes and the fakes.
I go because the others go; if you don't go, you're a freak.
And I bow my head with the rest of them, but inside I feel weak.

In six days, this god made the earth, the jock the nerd, the geek.
He's so great, he made all this stuff in just under a week.
If you don't ask him for forgiveness, you're in an awful mess,
And you'll be headed straight to hell in a handbag marked "express."

That's what they teach us in school,
They say not repenting is a crime.
But my mother says I don't need their rebirth,
'Cause she got it right the first time.

Mama goes to Circle, she dances with the sky,
My Dad's a Unitarian; his favorite question is "why?".
My teacher says they both are wrong, her god's the only one,
And I think I'm the battleground this war is fought upon.

In just six days my teacher's god made sky and sea and land,
And she thinks every one of us is in that same god's hand.
But I remember back before they passed that resolution
That hushed up evolution with a Biblical solution.

That's what they teach us in school.
Five days out of seven, I hear my folks are fools.
Mom and Dad say faith is in the heart, it's not a battle to be won,
But I think I'm the battleground this war is fought upon.
Mom and Dad say faith is in the heart, it's not a battle to be won,
But I think I'm the battleground this war is fought upon.

[Flyingcursor]

Six Days
By Gwen Knighton
© 1999

....stuff.....

The struggle of the young soul. I remember it all too well.

[jGilder]

Actually, not quite. Creationism is the belief that the world was, um, created. A belief, not a theory. Intelligent Design is a recent fad (pardon) that states that a form of creationism can expressed as a scientific theory. Because, in this view, I.D. is a theory rather than a belief, it can be taught in science class, goes the argument. Opponents of I.D. (such as I) argue that I.D. is not a theory (because "theory" is actually a very specific concept).

But isn't I.D. just creationism cloaked as theory in an attempt to have it taught along side evolution theory? This is what I've based all of my comments on.

[Tyler]

Actually, not quite. Creationism is the belief that the world was, um, created. A belief, not a theory. Intelligent Design is a recent fad (pardon) that states that a form of creationism can expressed as a scientific theory. Because, in this view, I.D. is a theory rather than a belief, it can be taught in science class, goes the argument. Opponents of I.D. (such as I) argue that I.D. is not a theory (because "theory" is actually a very specific concept).

But isn't I.D. just creationism claoked as theory in an attempt to have it taught along side evolution theory? This is what I've based all of my comments on.

Why cant the human race be some sort of interplanetary disease like facial herpes or german measles...
that's why we've never met any aliens yet
"Oh, don't go near Earth, it's got Human beings!"
That's the creation idea that I'd rather see taught in school

[jGilder]

There are many foreign objects that should definately not be shoved up ones nose (i.e. long pencils, cooking untensils, small household pets...),

I thought it was not to put beans in your ears:

(Never heared that one...)
Does the president have beans in his ears?
Cause he don't seem to hear...
Naw, he's got bean's in his a**
cause he's just full of gas!

I have a recording of Pete Seager singing this soung except he ends it with:

I think that all adults have beans in their ears... etc.

And then he names political figures of the time (70s) who also must have beans in their ears.

[jsluder]

Why cant the human race be some sort of interplanetary disease like facial herpes or german measles...
that's why we've never met any aliens yet

Nah. We haven't met aliens yet 'cause we're made of meat.