I dont even know the things I know!

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:45 am

AAAGGGHHHH! Not the DVD and video collection! Never that! Sinner! Sinner! Eeeeevvvviiilll!

djm

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:58 am

I don't own a single DVD or video game, but I fear I have entirely too many books.

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:07 am

Cranberry wrote:I don't own a single DVD or video game, but I fear I have entirely too many books.

Books are good. Books are a great start. You never know when you will want to refer to them again. Keep them. Keep them all. More stuff - gotta have it! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

djm

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:10 am

Cranberry wrote:I don't own a single DVD or video game, but I fear I have entirely too many books.

I hear ya bro!
We're in the middle of trying to move into our new house; I have about forty or fifty big boxes of books to move!

buddhu · Post by **buddhu** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:19 am

djm wrote:I think you folks may be leaving out a very large piece of the picture - quality of life. I like my stuff. I like accumulating my stuff. I like to have my stuff to hand when there's a question or reference I'm looking for. I like to have that obscure tool when that occasional job comes up that no other tool can do so well. I like having my own premises (poor as it may be) to keep my stuff in.

You may point out others who do not have such stuff and who are perfectly happy without it, but are they really happy, or just ignorant of what is available? Would their lives be enriched if they had access to more stuff? Would they think their lives were enriched if they had access to more stuff?

Don't be so quick to knock stuff. You can live naked in a hole in the ground, but what kind of life would that be? Its easy to bemoan having stuff, but I don't see anyone here rushing out to get rid of their stuff, either. If you decide to go all holy about your stuff, let me know in advance. I may be interested.

And before anyone else can say it, yes, I have already got stuffed.

djm

I think you are wrong. I don't think we're leaving out quality of life at all, it's just that some of us have tried (or at least seen) terrific quality of life that didn't depend on 'stuff'.

My wife and I have spent some of this past summer ditching things we don't need - and we have a long way to go before we'll be finished. This all started when we moved back out to the country from the town about three years ago. Stuff is baggage. It's superficial. How much of your beloved stuff has languished unseen in a cupboard for five years? Yeah, you really needed that so much that you can't even remember where you put it.

The fact that you just list the joys of stuff merely shows that what you consider important to quality of life is very disposable to me, and that what I consider important to quality of life probably wouldn't be satisfactory to you.

Apart from a couple of musical instruments, a place to live and somewhere to go for a drink and a song and a laugh with friends, there's little I'd need, and still less that I'd miss if the baliffs took it tomorrow (as they may well do, judging by my bank statement

).

TVs, computers, cars... pfff. I don't even really play most of my CDs. Oh, I *buy* them, then they go in the rack and come out once a year before getting put back in the wrong boxes.

Oh yeah, ask anyone living in a relatively poor, frill-free situation if they want stuff, and if they think life would be improved by it and they'll likely say yes. Maybe they'd try it and then decide that it added little of real value to their lives. On the other hand, perhaps more of them would just fall into the same crap routine as the rest of us, and end up enjoying the joys of locks, burglar alarms, armed security guards and paranoia. Luxury.

And it's not about living naked in a hole in the ground, it's about recognising what we don't need and wondering what our pursuit of it does to us and to other people. I'd say I need some clothes and a warm, dry domicile myself - I live in England and it's wet here.

I'll go along with perrins57's opening post.

buddhu · Post by **buddhu** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:22 am

Cranberry wrote:I don't own a single DVD or video game, but I fear I have entirely too many books.

Same as that where books are concerned. Most of them are next on the list to go. There are some I'll keep, but the ones I've read more than once, or want to read again, are in the minority, so most can go.

perrins57 · Post by **perrins57** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:11 am

We're on the same track Buddhu. I'm not suggesting people burn all their stuff and live like the "Good Life" (UK Sitcom where family became self sufficient). More that I was challenging the pre-occupation most of the Western world has with getting the better car/house/job/electrical appliance, as if they will be happier when driving an ES lux than just the regular S sedan. Trouble is many people end up giving their whole lives, all their time and most of their mental reserves to getting enough money to acquire better stuff, then are in a poor place to enjoy it. Look at the broken relationships of your average rich movie star, or pop icon - are their problems any easier to deal with because they have a Merc SL?
In Guyana everyone wants to go live in America. When the few "lucky" ones, who get enough money together, get to the US they find America doesn't want or need more poor ethnic minorities. Their "American dream" then becomes living in a ghetto in a US city washing dishes and living under the L train. They may well make more money than they did in Guyana, but gone are the Mango, papaya and banana trees on their own plot of land, gone is the security and safety of their village life, gone is the equal education for their children, far away is their family support and they usually cant afford to return home even if their pride would allow. They think all British and American people have a better quality of life, more stuff and are happier. I have three millionaire friends in the US and many wealthy ones in the UK, but some of the most content people I have met have little and live in Guyana. I pray they come to appreciate what they have and don’t envy us - we have more stuff, but are not necessarily richer or happier because of it.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:14 am

buddhu wrote:
Cranberry wrote:I don't own a single DVD or video game, but I fear I have entirely too many books.
Same as that where books are concerned. Most of them are next on the list to go. There are some I'll keep, but the ones I've read more than once, or want to read again, are in the minority, so most can go.

Yes, I have many books also...some of which I haven't even read yet.

buddhu · Post by **buddhu** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:43 am

Martin Milner wrote:
buddhu wrote:
Cranberry wrote:I don't own a single DVD or video game, but I fear I have entirely too many books.
Same as that where books are concerned. Most of them are next on the list to go. There are some I'll keep, but the ones I've read more than once, or want to read again, are in the minority, so most can go.
Yes, I have many books also...some of which I haven't even read yet.

Yeh, I've got three on the go simultaneously (one in the bedroom, one in the sitting room and one in the bathroom!)... Still got a stack I bought but don't have time to read at the moment.

Just shows, I haven't escaped the trap just yet.

<img src="http://www.kingswalden.com/e107_plugins ... d_roll.gif" />

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:45 am

Yea, I know how that is. I mean, I like stuff, but if it all disappeared tomorrow... well I'd be annoyed but I wouldn't decide my life is over.

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:58 am

Sorry, but I think you are blaming problems on stuff, when the problem lies elsewhere. This is similar to the other recent thread about - is money inherently evil, or is it the person who has the problems. Same with stuff. I don't see anything wrong with stuff, but if you are suffering from WHOA or similar disorders, is it the whistles' fault? I think not.

If you feel you have an excess of stuff, it may be that you are evolving into a new phase in your life and need to shed some of the old stuff - in order to acquire NEW stuff. Yay stuff!

djm

peteinmn · Post by **peteinmn** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:34 am

Interesting thread.

My wife and I just returned yesterday evening from a long weekend visit to old friends in St. Louis that we had not seen for a couple of years.

My friend Paul and I were avid photographers in our youth and both liked the 35mm Pentax cameras made by Honeywell before they sold out to Asahi. I have owned two of their camera bodies and a number of their excellent lenses for over 40 years. As my friend Paul and I approach retirement age I realized I have not used this stuff for years and, have instead moved to digital cameras that are more appropriate to my web site work. Meanwhile as Paul has more leasure time, he is again persuing his photo hobby. To make a long story short, I packed up about 45 pounds of vintage camera stuff into a separate suitcase and presented it to him over the weekend. Made him smile. Made me smile as well.

susnfx · Post by **susnfx** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:51 am

I just returned from a trip during which I visited with my three brothers and their families. Two of these families have succumbed to the "we've got to have it all" syndrome - and they do. They've got beautiful homes, redecorated regularly and expensively. They drive new cars and have all the toys considered necessary (4-wheelers, camping trailers, etc.).

And while I wouldn't want their load of debt, I'm glad that they stay in hotels when they come to Salt Lake to play/shop and I generally meet them for dinner out. I would be embarrassed to invite them to my extremely modest older home with the nine year old sofa and in desperate need of carpeting and tile throughout. And after looking over my brother's 2006 sports car, I was a little embarrassed to admit that the "new" car I just bought is a used 2002 model.

The embarrassment is my own problem, I suppose. I just feel that people who are so into all these things will be very judgmental of the people who don't have (or necessarily want) them...that their style of living somehow makes them better than those who can't live that way. They'd undoubtedly argue with that, but I can't help but feel it's true.

Susan

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:02 am

susnfx wrote:I just returned from a trip during which I visited with my three brothers and their families. Two of these families have succumbed to the "we've got to have it all" syndrome - and they do. They've got beautiful homes, redecorated regularly and expensively. They drive new cars and have all the toys considered necessary (4-wheelers, camping trailers, etc.).

And while I wouldn't want their load of debt, I'm glad that they stay in hotels when they come to Salt Lake to play/shop and I generally meet them for dinner out. I would be embarrassed to invite them to my extremely modest older home with the nine year old sofa and in desperate need of carpeting and tile throughout. And after looking over my brother's 2006 sports car, I was a little embarrassed to admit that the "new" car I just bought is a used 2002 model.

The embarrassment is my own problem, I suppose. I just feel that people who are so into all these things will be very judgmental of the people who don't have (or necessarily want) them...that their style of living somehow makes them better than those who can't live that way. They'd undoubtedly argue with that, but I can't help but feel it's true.

Susan

Well, I'm not sure how much it helps (if any) but I would rather stay with you than your brothers and their families, because a large part of my family is the same way with newer cars and houses and all the "right" clothes and "right" things. It makes me sick to my stomach to see them so caught up in what society tells them they should have, because (and I think this is key) they don't seem to realise they're so trapped and used. They have tens of thousands of dollars in debt, yet they get a new car every few years and have remodeled their house at least four times that I can remember. They're always wanting newer and better, and, I think, if you asked them why they're always wanting it, they probably couldn't tell you--it's not really a conscious kind of thing for them.

buddhu · Post by **buddhu** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:42 pm

djm wrote:Sorry, but I think you are blaming problems on stuff, when the problem lies elsewhere. This is similar to the other recent thread about - is money inherently evil, or is it the person who has the problems. Same with stuff. I don't see anything wrong with stuff, but if you are suffering from WHOA or similar disorders, is it the whistles' fault? I think not.

If you feel you have an excess of stuff, it may be that you are evolving into a new phase in your life and need to shed some of the old stuff - in order to acquire NEW stuff. Yay stuff!

djm

Who's blaming the stuff? I reckon those of us who think differently to you have spoken in terms of attitudes - we know that the 'problem' is with people more than with the stuff.

I see a parallel with other disorders. The main problem may be the bacteria causing the condition, but it is not uncommon to also discuss the symptoms. The stuff is symptomatic, thus we talk about it, but we know that it is not, in itself, the problem.

I think a key difference between you and me concerns something I said earlier.

I wrote:it's about recognising what we don't need and wondering what our pursuit of it does to us and to other people.

You either don't think about this or are in denial that greed is harmful. I don't think stuff or money are inherently evil. As the bible says, it is the love of them that causes problems and, in fact, can harm quality of life.

Timothy 6:10. wrote:For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

I hope religious and anti-religious types alike will excuse me using that quote. I only mean to illustrate that the problem has been recognised for a long time!

Cranberry wrote:Well, I'm not sure how much it helps (if any) but I would rather stay with you than your brothers and their families, because a large part of my family is the same way with newer cars and houses and all the "right" clothes and "right" things. It makes me sick to my stomach to see them so caught up in what society tells them they should have, because (and I think this is key) they don't seem to realise they're so trapped and used. They have tens of thousands of dollars in debt, yet they get a new car every few years and have remodeled their house at least four times that I can remember. They're always wanting newer and better, and, I think, if you asked them why they're always wanting it, they probably couldn't tell you--it's not really a conscious kind of thing for them.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about. You are dead right there, Cran, when you say "..don't seem to realise they're so trapped and used".