London mayor blames Middle East policy for bombings

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s1m0n
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Post by s1m0n »

The Weekenders wrote:Sorry, but there is a vast difference in the goals of the Quebecois to radical Islam.
You're missing the point again. Fundamentalist Islam is the vehicle, not the driver in this dispute. Give the driver another viable vehicle to drive, and fundamentalist Islam will lose it's appeal.

The secret is to stop the radicalization of new recruits to the cause by addressing the concerns which made them radical in the first place.

Remember, the middle east has come *very* late to fundamentalism. Their populations have tried democracy and tried socialism first. They're not married to the ideology of fundamentalism; it's a tool.

However, this may be too much complexity, and it doesn't map well to good/evil binaries.

However, nothing much in politics ever does.
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Post by Tyler »

Simon, I agree...
It seems as though we ignore (and have ignored for years) people's legitimate gripes with the US.
Even if people's gripes weren't legit, we could still address them peacefully and hopefully be able to convince them of that. The very least that could be done in those situations where there are irrational gripes against the US is try to come to the peaceful conclusion that we all have things about ourselves that are going to agrivate or piss off the other party, we just have to learn to live with the things that annoy us.
The US could have been great friends with the mid-east, instead of the adversarial atmosphere that exists now, even between the US and our supposed alies there.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 09_pf.html

Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says

By Gideon Long
Reuters
Friday, July 22, 2005; 10:57 AM



LONDON (Reuters) - Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics said on Friday.

Speaking 15 days after bombers killed over 50 people in London and a day after a series of failed attacks on the city's transport network, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.

"What happened yesterday confirmed that as long as the cause and the root problem is still there ... we will see the same effect we saw on July 7," Bakri said.

"If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.

Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric who has been vilified in Britain since 2001 when he praised the September 11 hijackers, said he did not believe the bombings and attempted attacks on London were carried out by British Muslims.

He condemned the killing of all innocent civilians but described attacks on British and U.S. troops in Muslim countries as "pro-life" and justified.

In an interview with Reuters, Bakri described Osama bin Laden, leader of the radical Islamist network al Qaeda, as "a sincere man who fights against evil forces."

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.

MESSAGE OF PEACE ... MESSAGE OF WAR

A hate figure for the British tabloid press, the bearded and bespectacled Bakri said Islam contained "a message of peace for those who want to live with the Muslims in peace."

"But Islam is a message of war for those who declare war against Muslims," he said.

"I condemn any killing and any bombing against any innocent people in Britain or abroad, but I expect the British people to condemn the killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."

However, asked about Islamist attacks on British and U.S. troops and on Israelis, he said: "If violence is pro-life I don't condemn it."

Britain has around 1,100 troops in Afghanistan and 8,500 in Iraq. Prime Minister Tony Blair supported the United States in its respective invasions of both countries in 2001 and 2003.

Bakri, a 46-year-old father of six, was born in Syria and lived in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. When the Saudi government expelled him in 1985 he came to London.

Nicknamed "The Tottenham Ayatollah" after the area of north London in which he lives, he has infuriated many Britons with his firebrand speeches and refusal to condemn suicide bombings.

He founded the British branch of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which describes itself as a non-violent political party dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centered on the Middle East.

But he split from the group in 1996 and set up al Muhajiroun, which won notoriety in 2001 for celebrating the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon which killed nearly 3,000 people.

Bakri has Syrian and Lebanese citizenship and says he thinks the British government might deport him to one of those two countries in the wake of this month's bombings.

"But I think that would be political suicide for the British government if they started to deport and imprison all extremists and radicals," he said.

"Because if, God forbid, something happened again, they would have nobody left to blame."
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Post by Tyler »

He condemned the killing of all innocent civilians but described attacks on British and U.S. troops in Muslim countries as "pro-life" and justified
You hear a lot of abortion clinic bombers say that too...
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Post by IRTradRU? »

" a lot" of abortion clinic bombers?

Laughable, not to mention incomparable.
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Post by The Weekenders »

s1m0n wrote:
Remember, the middle east has come *very* late to fundamentalism. Their populations have tried democracy and tried socialism first. They're not married to the ideology of fundamentalism; it's a tool.

.
They have been fundamentalist since about 714. But in the modern world, of countries formed by colonial powers in the 20th century, I would agree that there has been experimentation with non-theocracies, except the Sauds of course, who feel that God gave their family the oil and "anointed" them..

One could also argue that it took a rich Muslim, Osama, to transform the cause from Molotov throwing terrorism to much more militarized and equipped force. The metaphor would be that, as long as they were "held under" by colonial and post-Colonial forces, they harbored fundamentalist thoughts but couldn't act on them. Then, between COLD WAR support for the Mujahadeen by the U.S. and enrichment via Saudi business, opium trade, etc. the level of ability to act on fundamentalist thoughts has been enabled.

I would agree to that extent, but still, does it really help London to put on a hair shirt and say "we done wrong?" I don't think so and I don't think Livingstone has any real answers. Especially when guys like Bakri are allowed to spew their hate?
Last edited by The Weekenders on Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tyler »

IRTradRU? wrote:" a lot" of abortion clinic bombers?

Laughable, not to mention incomparable.
Isn't that the message that they're trying to express, that killing is justified in such a way?
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Post by IRTradRU? »

Back to the topic:

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.


That's what the Islamists want. There's nothing for them to negotiate.
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Post by Tyler »

IRTradRU? wrote:Back to the topic:

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.


That's what the Islamists want. There's nothing for them to negotiate, and what happened in 714 or 1141 or 1999 isn't what's bothering them.
I know several Muslims and the last thing they want is to assimilate the world...
Most of the ones I know just want to be left alone.
The extremists may want to take over...how would you deal with that?
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Post by The Weekenders »

Tyler Morris wrote:
IRTradRU? wrote:Back to the topic:

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.


That's what the Islamists want. There's nothing for them to negotiate, and what happened in 714 or 1141 or 1999 isn't what's bothering them.
I know several Muslims and the last thing they want is to assimilate the world...
Most of the ones I know just want to be left alone.
The extremists may want to take over...how would you deal with that?
It isn't your "acquaintances who happen to be Muslim" who are bombing London, dangit. it's middle class kids who are so influenced by guys like Bakri, along with their historic grievances, who are carrying out his will.

The fact that this guy is allowed to continue to conspire against Britain shows the flaws in the British approach to Islamic terror. Livingstone and Blair should throw his ass in jail or send him to Gitmo. What the heck, the US is taking the heat anyway, what's one more asshole in jail?
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Post by jGilder »

Well well well... look who's back after giving his farewell speech.
IRTradRU? wrote:Dale, again, sorry for the consternation I may have caused. No more visiting & posting from me is the best answer, IMO.

Ciao,
Brianc, (had the same posting style,) gave a similar goodbye last March right before the first appearance of IRTradRU?. hmmmmm Image
brianc wrote:Then this is a good time to stop.

Buh-bye everyone.

I'm going to play and practice and practice and play instead of webbing.
It appears that now both brianc and IRTradRU? (same person?) have resumed posting. If they are the same person, isn't there something about having two usernames that Dale doesn't like?

If they're different, then I apologize, but the reemergence of IRTradRU? means that the fire danger alert is "high." Get your hoses ready -- flames will be all around again. Image
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Post by jGilder »

Tyler Morris wrote:The US could have been great friends with the mid-east, instead of the adversarial atmosphere that exists now, even between the US and our supposed alies there.
The problem is that the US is always on the wrong side in the Middle East. When Iran had a democracy the US overthrew it and installed the Shah in 1953. He was on of the 20th Century's most brutal and bloodthirsty dictators. Why did we do it? Because the elected president of Iran was elected on the platform; "Iran's oil for Iran's people." This underlines exactly the point the mayor of London was making.

The US also was instrumental in helping Saddam rise to power in Iraq, and they armed him to his teeth and even vetoed the UN resolution condemning him for gassing the Kurds. The US also vetoed UN resolutions condemning the Israeli government for its treatment of the Palestinians. If it weren't for the support the US provides to Israel -- Israel wouldn't have been capable of carrying out the atrocities against the Palestinians. These are only two examples.
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Post by TomB »

IRTradRU? wrote:" a lot" of abortion clinic bombers?

Laughable, not to mention incomparable.

You can say back to the topic, but this was your post. I don't see where killing of these folks is laughable, and it is comparable.

However, back to the topic.

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Post by TomB »

IRTradRU? wrote:Back to the topic:

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.


That's what the Islamists want. There's nothing for them to negotiate.

Yeah, and our government wants the world to be a "democracy." Even those who don't want it.

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Post by The Weekenders »

Equivalent? Really? Last time I checked, you can worship any God in a democracy or democratic republic. And we are not bombing subways in any non-democracy we feel like, while Islam has about a dozen hotspots in the world where their mayhem continues, most of which have NOTHING to do with Iraq or Palestine.

WB, Irtrad! I don't know why anybody would have to object to your return. You don't even own a pitbull, I think....
Last edited by The Weekenders on Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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