REINCARNATION

[jbarter]

Heartfelt, soulful music is our momentary lapse into our image in the likeness of God.

I know that feeling but I've always called it 'great craic'.

[Chuck_Clark]

I have a question about reincarnation...

Supposing that the reincarnees (?) have any say in the matter, why in the heck would they want to come back HERE?

[GaryKelly]

And have you noticed how, right, that although the human population as a whole keeps increasing, the overall animal population keeps decreasing? Which might explain why you don't need a big pool of 'extra souls' loafing around for all the new people that are born.

But what I really want to know is why all those actresses will insist they were Cleopatra in a previous life, and why none of them ever seem to believe they were Mrs Gladys Throgbottler from Grimsby.

[emmline]

But what I really want to know is why all those actresses will insist they were Cleopatra in a previous life, and why none of them ever seem to believe they were Mrs Gladys Throgbottler from Grimsby.

I'm fairly certain that Mrs. Throgbottler was Cleopatra, whereas the actresses in question were all Mrs. T's cats. Every time one died, she got another and named it Cleopatra. That's where the confusion comes from.

[jbarter]

But what I really want to know is why all those actresses will insist they were Cleopatra in a previous life, and why none of them ever seem to believe they were Mrs Gladys Throgbottler from Grimsby.

That's because I was the delectable Gladys Throgbottler. I seem to remember that I died after being bitten on the ass by a snake or summink.

[MarkB]

If you took a can of Carnation evaporated milk and added whole milk to it would it be reincarnated then? Or would only be 2% of what it was.

Re: In Car Nation...In a nation of cars, you can't walk anywhere!

MarkB

[CHIFF FIPPLE]

But what I really want to know is why all those actresses will insist they were Cleopatra in a previous life, and why none of them ever seem to believe they were Mrs Gladys Throgbottler from Grimsby.

That's because I was the delectable Gladys Throgbottler. I seem to remember that I died after being bitten on the ass by a snake or summink.

O'h no you was not that was me I was that Gladys Throgbottler, you was one of my cats too, I rember you was that scrawny tabby what got bit in the ass by a Snake

[jim stone]

And have you noticed how, right, that although the human population as a whole keeps increasing, the overall animal population keeps decreasing? Which might explain why you don't need a big pool of 'extra souls' loafing around for all the new people that are born.

But what I really want to know is why all those actresses will insist they were Cleopatra in a previous life, and why none of them ever seem to believe they were Mrs Gladys Throgbottler from Grimsby.

This is actually taken seriously. How does rebirth jibe with a rapidly
expanding human population? I think the human population has
quadrupled since the 1940s. There is no Deity in this system
making souls to keep up. In both Hinduism and Buddhism karma
and rebirth are laws of nature, and we all have been reborn
countless times. Animal mortality doesn't necessarily help,
because whatever other species are dying, rats appear to
double the human population. Lots and lots of rats.

The standard response is that there are many realms, including
celestial realms. Individuals in these realms appear to be dying
like flies since 1950 or so.

To Chuck: nobody wants to come back at all, at least not according
to orthodoxy. Rebirth is bad news--you get broken repeatedly
on the Wheel of Samsara, the round of suffering. You grow suffer,
grow old, die until you can find a way out. Karma, which is a natural
force created by action done from the delusion that 'I' act,
is the force that drives one into a new rebirth--karma is inescapable.
Even good and noble deeds done in ignorance will drive you into
another life, perhaps in a celestial realm, but the gods themselves
die. The name of the game, therefore, is to learn to act
without creating new karma.

This is why the bodhisatva in the later Mahayana tradition is so
heroic: because he/she vows to return AFTER she is enlightened,
to be broken repeatedly on the wheel, until all sentient beings
are liberated--'Yea, unitl the last blade of grass is liberated!'
The Mahayana, which started about100 years or so after
the Buddha's death, rethought the doctrine of karma
so that one actually did have this choice. For the Buddha
this was impossible. Enlightened people live until their
past karma is spent and then never return.

In Indian religion, the wages of sin (which is ignorance) is Life!
Unless you come back through heroic compassion.

[littlejohngael]

Animal mortality doesn't necessarily help, because whatever other species are dying, rats appear to double the human population. Lots and lots of rats.

That wouldn't happen to jibe with the increased number of lawyers on the earth, would it?

Little John

[John S]

More seriously, the concept of Karma is a clever slight of hand originally used to justify the racism of the cast system in India.
In Christianity most people until very recently work all their lives at the sh*t end of a very long stick and then were supposed to be rewarded with a jam tomorrow place in Heaven. In Hinduism you get the chance after death to come back as something better, but here's the clever bit, it's your fault your in the sh*t in the first place.

A wonderfully evil piece of moral prestidigitation.

John S

[jim stone]

More seriously, the concept of Karma is a clever slight of hand originally used to justify the racism of the cast system in India.
In Christianity most people until very recently work all their lives at the sh*t end of a very long stick and then were supposed to be rewarded with a jam tomorrow place in Heaven. In Hinduism you get the chance after death to come back as something better, but here's the clever bit, it's your fault your in the sh*t in the first place.

A wonderfully evil piece of moral prestidigitation.

John S

Well there are some wrinkles here.
The Buddha attacked the caste system with all his force--
he emphasized that 'Just as all rivers become one in the
sea, all castes become one in buddhism.'
As you probably know, he came from the
warrior caste, not the top caste, and he
did not like the Brahmins very well.
He attacked animal sacrifice too, which was
their bread and butter.
People who became Buddhists lost their caste,
both lay and monastic, which was one of the
reasons Buddhism swept India.

But there is no question that the
Buddha believed in karma--which suggests
strongly that there is something more to the
doctrine than a sleight of hand used to
justify the caste system.

Caste is pretty interesting stuff. There was always
a way out of caste, which defined the world of work;
castes were a bit like mideival guilds, with their
own religious rites and so on, a bit less like
racism as we know it, though there are racist
overtones. So you could leave your caste by
leaving the world of work. One way was to
become a wandering holyman, a renunciate who
lives by begging.
Such people are casteless. The Buddha did that
himself, in fact.

Another is to wait until your children
are grown and then you go to your wife and say:
'With your consent I will go now.' She says 'yes' or 'no'
or 'take me too.' Then you, and perhaps she, spend
the rest of your lives on pilgrimages, supported
by ashrams, until you die somewhere along the
way. People who do this also lose their caste.
So caste isn't quite racism--it's something else.

Buddhism succeeded largely because it gave people
a way out of caste without having to become
renunciates.

It's possible that karma originated in an effort
to rationalize caste (and there is no question it
was enlisted to serve that purpose), but I doubt that
this is true; certainly I don't think this is what
the doctrine is principally about. The idea that
what you do comes back to you sooner or later,
that this is an impersonal law of nature, transcends
institutions; one can see how this could have a powerful
grip on people's minds for its own sake. It is not
impossible that the doctrine of karma preceded
the caste system.
Also karma explains why rebirth happens, and it
is unlikely that rebirth was cooked up merely to justify
a social system (though it has social implications, too).
My own feeling is that doctrines like this, which survive for thousands
of years, are hard to reduce to feats of social engineering,
however profound their social implications may be.

[DarnTootin]

The (oftimes controversial) teacher Chogyam Trungpa was once asked, "If there is no permanent self, what is it that is reincarnated?"

His response: "I'm sorry to have to tell you: It's mostly your bad habits."

[whistlerroberto]

I don't believe in re-incarnation, although I feel one should act, to some degree as if they should be establishing good karma. People should act good for it's own sake, as well, although, sadly, that doesn't happen :cry:. I feel like I was Japanese at one time, though, and Irish at another! I have an utter fascination with both cultures.

Whistlerroberto

[jim stone]

The (oftimes controversial) teacher Chogyam Trungpa was once asked, "If there is no permanent self, what is it that is reincarnated?"

His response: "I'm sorry to have to tell you: It's mostly your bad habits."

Great answer. I knew this guy. Sheesh!

[jkrazy52]

I read once that you should ask a young child what they did when they were 'big' -- the answer would probably surprise you. When my nephew was around 2 years old, we drove past a small airport. He could see airplanes close up for the first time. His first words at the sight? "I flew in one of those once -- but I crashed in the ocean and drowned." I nearly drove off the road.

~Judy