Smoking Ban imposed in Ireland

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:34 pm

Once again I'd like to point out that these bans aren't designed for the benefit of the consumer. They're regarding a workplace -- to protect the people who literally have no choice but to breath secondhand smoke, the nice young man with the clean white teeth who serves your beer. Paulette who brings me my whiskey every Wednesday is in that bar EVERY NIGHT...ALL NIGHT. She has a right to a clean and safe workplace.

As an exsmoker myself, I am generally appalled by cigarette and cigar smoke...except sometimes when I absolutely go into raptures over the scent of burning tobacco...usually after a spectacular dinner over an exquisite cup of coffee. Even the tiniest wisp gets my hands trembling. This is now 20 years later. Not addictive my a##.

Respectfully submitted,

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:37 pm

I had never really felt strongly about the issue until a trip to Ireland last summer. Ottawa has had a ban for quite awhile now and the smoke in Ireland just floored me. You don't realize how bad it is until you experience what clean air is like in a confined space. Not to mention how nice it is to wake up after a night at the pub and not smell like cigarette smoke, makes the hangover slightly easier.

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:59 pm

Redwolf, you have very sanely stated the flaws in the anti-tobacco arguments. I won't repeat your statements.

The good old USA, and several other countries in the "free world" are revealing that in fact- we are not "free".

I recently heard it pointed out that we do NOT own our land, homes, etc. We pay "rent"(taxes) for the priviledge of claiming, on paper, that we control a certain geographical area.

Just how much goverment control/involvment in our personal lives do we want? and at the cost of what percieved freedoms?

Right now smokers are the scapegoats, who's next?

Not to mention how nice it is to wake up after a night at the pub and not smell like cigarette smoke, makes the hangover slightly easier.

I've gotta say that I can't think of a lot of things that smell worse than a bunch of drinkers- smoking or non-smoking. Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:08 pm

cowtime wrote:I've gotta say that I can't think of a lot of things that smell worse than a bunch of drinkers- smoking or non-smoking. Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

Well cigarette smoke doesn't exactly make it anymore pleasant.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:22 am

I do not smoke, nor did I grow up around it. My parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were nonsmokers, and I am not in favor of smoking, but I think the anti-smoking campaign has taken on an extremist nature.

When I was a child, there were ashtrays in grocery stores, and public places in general. This is mostly not the case today. When I go into a restaurant they ask, smoking or nonsmoking. I am fine with that. Legislation is making even smoking sections nonexistent. In the winter I see smokers standing outside their workplaces, stores, fastfood establishments, banks, and the like, smoking in the freezing weather. It's sad. Smokers have enough troubles without having to get exposure to the elements, too.

What I am especially bothered by, in the anti-smoking campaigns of today, are the television ads, with the dehumanizing villifications. I do not think terribly highly of tobacco companies, et al, but it reminds me too much of a sort of negative propaganda campaign that might have been employed by some hate group in times past.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:35 am

In the UK, the Student's Union imposed a ban on smoking in all Student Uni' bars. They were forced to repeal that decision when profits crashed through the floor.

I think also you need to understand that in the UK, it is smokers, via the incredible amount of tax levied against them, that are paying for the health service (and a few other services too). If every smoker in the UK quit tomorrow, the UK would be bankrupt by the end of the month.

The mainstay of Britain's tax revenues is tobacco. Then alcohol and fuel. That's why those three items take the hit in every budget. Here in the UK, a pack of 20 cigarettes is now around $12 US.

I imagine it won't be long before the ban imposed in Ireland is reversed.

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:39 am

Tyghress wrote:Once again I'd like to point out that these bans aren't designed for the benefit of the consumer. They're regarding a workplace -- to protect the people who literally have no choice but to breath secondhand smoke, the nice young man with the clean white teeth who serves your beer. Paulette who brings me my whiskey every Wednesday is in that bar EVERY NIGHT...ALL NIGHT. She has a right to a clean and safe workplace.

Exactly.
The vast majority of barstaff support the ban - http://www.thepublican.com/cgi-bin/item ... -%25B-%25Y
The majority of people in the country support the ban - http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/2003/11 ... 20064.html

it will be remembered as the one good thing this horrible government has done for Ireland. which is their plan no doubt.

as someone on the rte website said

Smoking kills. Fact. Attempts by smokers to try to justify polluting the air that others have to breathe are pathetic.

its funny though, i've never before found myself on the side that has nazi allegations hurled at them! interesting..

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:02 am

GaryKelly wrote:
I think also you need to understand that in the UK, it is smokers, via the incredible amount of tax levied against them, that are paying for the health service (and a few other services too). If every smoker in the UK quit tomorrow, the UK would be bankrupt by the end of the month.

cost of the NHS - £37 billion
tax revenue from tobacco - £9.5 billion
total tax revenue - £340 million

are you sure your not exagerating a little bit?

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:03 am

edit: double post, sorry

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:30 am

Marko wrote:Exactly.
The vast majority of barstaff support the ban - http://www.thepublican.com/cgi-bin/item ... -%25B-%25Y
The majority of people in the country support the ban - http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/2003/11 ... 20064.html

it will be remembered as the one good thing this horrible government has done for Ireland. which is their plan no doubt.

as someone on the rte website said
Smoking kills. Fact. Attempts by smokers to try to justify polluting the air that others have to breathe are pathetic.
its funny though, i've never before found myself on the side that has nazi allegations hurled at them! interesting..

"The vast majority of barstaff support the ban " Where in the article quoted does it state that? One union's delegates voted on a motion. This wasn't a referendum of all bar staff in the country. If you have any knowledge at all about how unions operate, you wouldn't be making that sweeping statement!

"The majority of people in the country support the ban" - the second statement, and the linked article itself is completely specious too. It says:

"The Office of Tobacco Control found 81% of people questioned think bar owners should comply with the law, including 61% of smokers. The new law takes effect at the end of next January.

Valerie Robinson from the OTC said: "This survey shows there is overwhelming public support for the law. It also tends to support the view that this measure to provide people - especially staff - with a safe, clean, healthy environment will, to a considerable extent, be self-enforcing. "

So, an anti-smoking action group conducted a 'survey' of an unknown number of people of unknown affiliation...and then makes the completely specious deduction about "the majority of the people in the country." BS. For all we know, this anti-smoking action group surveyed 5 of its own members. This wasn't a public referendum.

Interestingly, I just conducted a survey. The overwhelming landslide majority think the ban in Ireland is a complete crock. The vast majority think that people who work in pubs and clubs do so voluntarily and might reasonably be expected to have noticed the stinky smoky boozy environment when they applied for the job. Therefore, the general public clearly supports reversing the ban immediately, and obliging all employees in stinky smoky boozy environments to sign a declaration that they are volunteering to work in a hazardous environment.

Smoking kills. Fact. Attempts by smokers to try to justify polluting the air that others have to breathe are pathetic.

So does alcohol. That substance is responsible for millions of man-hours lost productivity in the workplace. Death on the highway, violent assault, domestic misery, criminal damage...hospital casualty departments and police cells are never more full than they are at weekends thanks to this poison. In fact, more human misery than you can shake a stick at.

But lots of people like it (and tobacco too). That's why the government here loves it - billions in tax revenue every year. There are some cynics on this side of the pond who believe that the government's latest foray into 'decriminalising' other poisons (notably cannabis) is simply the first step to legalising, and then taxing, the consumption of that substance too.

Apologies for the long post - but I do think you need to consider the economic and social ramifications of "banning" anything before knee-jerking. In this case (the ban on smoking in public places, such as pubs, in Ireland), you need to consider the case of the Students' Union ban and subsequent repeal I posted earlier. It could very well be that any bar-staff applauding this ban might soon find the 'clean air' they are breathing is down at the local job-centre, alongside their former employers...

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:40 am

Marko wrote: cost of the NHS - £37 billion
tax revenue from tobacco - £9.5 billion
total tax revenue - £340 million

are you sure your not exagerating a little bit?

Yes. If smokers and drinkers quit their habits, income tax here would need to rise to about 95p in the pound in order to cover the shortfall. There simply wouldn't be enough time for the government to adjust its spending/borrowing and introduce emergency measures to cover costs in the event that smokers/drinkers quit overnight.

There is a very real feeling that the government in Ireland has 'shot itself in the foot' with this measure. It will impact not only those who smoke, and not only the establishments they used to frequent, but all the subsidiary related industries too (catering, brewing, distilling, the obvious ones, right down to the local company supplying hand-towels to those establishments).

You might not recall the 'fuel tax demonstrations' of a few years back here in the UK (the government called it a 'blockade'...it wasn't). The country was virtually crippled within a week by a lack of fuel at the pumps, and the economic impact was "significant" enough for the government to seriously consider employing the military to ensure delivery of fuel to the filling-stations.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:00 am

GaryKelly wrote: There is a very real feeling that the government in Ireland has 'shot itself in the foot' with this measure.
.

Whatever else one thinks of the ban, this is not an opinion prevailing in Ireland, not in media coverage nor 'on the street'. In fact the implementation of the ban went very smoothly so far, with even the KJerry publicans backing down from their initial threat not to enforce the ban on their premises.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:05 am

What happens here with our "free" societies is they enforce more and more petty rules "for our own good" which "they know better":

• What, where to eat, drink
• When, where, how to drive/ride
• Where and when we may walk, or swim (but don't go further than the garden fence, junior!)
• What to think of the world generally (state propaganda being the grown-ups' catechism)
• Where to smoke (can't even smoke in the loo, now

)
• What to wear
• Generally what to do with our own body

When it's done through education, I often agree.

When I hear it's 'because we after all pay for your health', then it reminds me the usual argument to silence a teen-ager: remind him who pays the bills...

When it's enforced rules, otherwise a slap or a spank--"you'll understand later t'was fer your own good"...

Our governments always tended to patronize us--the "masses"
But now, it's the process of our total infantilization.

The paradox is our society behaves with us in the ways we're told at the same time not to educate our children.

You may totally deny the above--it will help to feel better.
I'm sure the average ant is happy: it's genetically adjusted.
We'll find the molecule for humans: Prozac and TV are only the stone age of mankind.

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:11 am

GaryKelly wrote:So does alcohol. That substance is responsible for millions of man-hours lost productivity in the workplace. Death on the highway, violent assault, domestic misery, criminal damage

drink driving is illegal, violent assault is illegal, etc..

the consequences of alcohol that dramatically affect people other than the consumer come about through illegal actions by the consumer.

thats not the case with tobacco.

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:17 am

Zub, i think we're in agreement. there's very few substances im not in favour of legalising, and i think people should be allowed to poison themselves in any way they see fit. But their freedom to do this should stop when they put lives in danger other than their own.