Mna na h Eireann (Women of Ireland)

[Jack]

And, while we're on the subject: 20th Century Religious Theory

Capitalism - He who dies with the most toys, wins.

Hari Krishna - He who plays with the most toys, wins.

Catholicism - He who denies himself the most toys, wins.

Anglican - They were our toys first.

Greek Orthodox - No, they were OURS first.

Branch Davidians - He who dies playing with the biggest toys, wins.

Atheism - There is no toy maker.

Polytheism - There are many toy makers.

Evolutionism - The toys made themselves.

Church of Christ, Scientist - We are the toys.

Communism - Everyone gets the same number of toys,

and you go straight to hell if we catch you selling yours.

B'Hai - All toys are just fine with us.

Amish - Toys with batteries are surely a sin.

Taoism - The doll is as important as the dumptruck.

Mormonism - Every boy can have as many toys as he wants.

Voodoo - Let me borrow that doll for a second.

Hedonism - To heck with the rule book!? Let's play!

Hinduism - He who plays with bags of plastic farm animals, loses.

7th Day Adventist - He who plays with his toys on Saturday, loses.

Church of Christ - He whose toys make music, loses.

Baptist - Once played, always played.

Jehovah's Witnesses - He who sells the most toys door-to-door, wins.

Pentecostalism - He whose toys can talk, wins.

Existentialism - Toys are a figment of your imagination.

Confucianism - Once a toy is dipped in the water, it is no longer dry.

Non-denominationalism - We don't care where the toys came from,

let's just play with them.

Agnosticism - It is not possible to know whether toys make a bit of difference.

This is my new current favorite thing! I love it!

[s1m0n]

The Donation is the basis of the Church's claim of Imperial dignity and was used to gain the Church temporal power in relation to the emerging Carolingans. But it wasn't the basis for the claim of spiritual supremacy. That goes back to the "Peter you are the rock on which I will build my church" bit.

Matt.16:18-19: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

This passage certainly affirms a power posessed by Peter, but does nothing to prove that this power was passed on to the bishop(s) of Rome.

The donation is the part that claims that the bishop of rome inherited this power from Peter after peter's death. No one disputed the fact that Peter had this power; what was disputed was whether Peter could (or did) pass it on.

Rome said he did, but there was nothing to base this claim on; it's founded on nothing but sheer assertion and--as I note--a forged document.

[djm]

Since Paul never knew Christ personally, I have never quite grasped the bit about the connection to Peter. I have read that Peter was held prisoner for a bit by the Romans, but how this translated to Paul or the Romans gaining succession from Peter has never been made quite clear to me.

djm

[s1m0n]

The part I still don't get is how the Byzantine church coined the name "Catholic" but ended up calling itself "Orthodox," while the Roman church, which split with the Byzantine church, carried the name "Catholic" off to Rome to keep for itself.

The process at work is the linguistic phenomenon of truncation, which is the tendency for the modifiers in frequently-used compound words or phrases to be discarded; we say "bus", not omnibus, 'hockey' not 'ice hockey' and "phone' rather than telephone--that's truncation.

So "Roman Catholic" becomes "Catholic"; we use the shortened form to represent the original until people forget that this isn't the entire word; I'm sure you can come up with your own examples.

~~

Remember, prior to the reformation--a full millenium after Nicaea--this wasn't an issue. The Church was simply "the Church", not the "the roman church" or "the catholic church". With the rise of reform-minded movements and their eventual schism, a term had to be coined for the unreformed portion of western Europe's church, and 'catholic' started to become that term.

Other branches of the church also use 'catholic' to varying degrees. Ukrainian chritianity has been the "Ukrainian Catholic Church" all along, and they'd certainly resent any suggestion that they're usurping a word from Rome.

[Jerry Freeman]

Right. But you're saying that the name "Catholic" was coined by the Byzantine church. If I'm following this correctly, the Byzantine church and the Roman church were both part of the undivided church, and then they split. Did the Byzantine church coin the name "Catholic" before or after the split?

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Nanohedron]

I doubt that Augustine really gave a crap whether "catholic" was capitalized or not.

Which is why I wrote:

FWIW, the use of "Catholic" (in the present upper-case fashion)...

"Present" and "fashion" being operative words in this case.

[gonzo914]

I doubt that Augustine really gave a crap whether "catholic" was capitalized or not.

Which is why I wrote:

FWIW, the use of "Catholic" (in the present upper-case fashion)...

"Present" and "fashion" being operative words in this case.

Ahhh, I see. You meant that you were using "Catholic" in its present upper-case fashion, not that the present upper-case fashion dates back to Augustine, whereas I was simply underscoring that the present upper-case fashion does not date back to Augustine, a fact that I am confident you surely know but that may not be so palpably obvious to our less erudite readers.

I am so glad we got to have this conversation. It gives you a chance to kiss my ring.

[Bloomfield]

I am so glad we got to have this conversation. It gives you a chance to kiss my ring.

A man asks a psychologist in the street, "Excuse me, do you know the way to the train station?"
The psychologist replies: "No, but I am so glad we could speak about it."

[Jack]

Did the Byzantine church coin the name "Catholic" before or after the split?

Yes.

[Nanohedron]

It gives you a chance to kiss my ring.

But I'm not Catholic, or that catholic. So thanks anyway.

[Jerry Freeman]

Did the Byzantine church coin the name "Catholic" before or after the split?

Yes.

OK, so how did the Roman Catholic church end up being named "Catholic" whilst the Byzantine church, which you're telling me coined the name "Catholic," ended up being named "Orthodox"? That's been my question for several rounds here, but no one's answered it.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Denny]

'cause they didn't follow them upstart Romans

[Jack]

Did the Byzantine church coin the name "Catholic" before or after the split?

Yes.

OK, so how did the Roman Catholic church end up being named "Catholic" whilst the Byzantine church, which you're telling me coined the name "Catholic," ended up being named "Orthodox"? That's been my question for several rounds here, but no one's answered it.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Oh. They're both "orthodox" and they're both "catholic." Neither one was first, and neither one "split off" from the other. They mutually broke up (read: ex-communicated each other!) officially in 1054 for a whole slew of historical reasons.

One of them took "Catholic" in its proper name and one took "Orthodox." They could have taken the other terms or they could have both taken the same term, it's just the way it worked out. Does that make sense?

Of course, a [Roman] Catholic will tell you her church was first and the [Eastern] Orthodox were a split-off, whereas an [Eastern] Orthodox will tell you the opposite, that they each own the respective terms because they "had it first." An unbiased historian will tell you what I told you.

(I'm currently high on cold medicine so I may make no sense. I tried.)

[Nanohedron]

Did the Byzantine church coin the name "Catholic" before or after the split?

Yes.

OK, so how did the Roman Catholic church end up being named "Catholic" whilst the Byzantine church, which you're telling me coined the name "Catholic," ended up being named "Orthodox"? That's been my question for several rounds here, but no one's answered it.

Best wishes,
Jerry

I'll make more assumptions and hazard that καθολικός was already in the Greek lexicon and that it wasn't coined per se. "Orthodox" meaning "correct thought/teaching/glorification" seems straightforward enough if one is going to have a label to differentiate oneself from "c/Catholic". I can just imagine the thrust-and-parry: "We are universal." "Ah, but WE are correct."

[Jerry Freeman]

Yes.

OK, so how did the Roman Catholic church end up being named "Catholic" whilst the Byzantine church, which you're telling me coined the name "Catholic," ended up being named "Orthodox"? That's been my question for several rounds here, but no one's answered it.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Oh. They're both "orthodox" and they're both "catholic." Neither one was first, and neither one "split off" from the other. They mutually broke up (read: ex-communicated each other!) officially in 1054 for a whole slew of historical reasons.

One of them took "Catholic" in its proper name and one took "Orthodox." They could have taken the other terms or they could have both taken the same term, it's just the way it worked out. Does that make sense?

Of course, a [Roman] Catholic will tell you her church was first and the [Eastern] Orthodox were a split-off, whereas an [Eastern] Orthodox will tell you the opposite. An unbiased historian will tell you what I told you.

If they didn't divide until 1054, this would conflict with the idea that the Byzantine church coined the name "Catholic" after it split with the Roman church. Again, I'm trying to sort out the concept that the Byzantine church coined the name "Catholic."

Best wishes,
Jerry