Darwin wrote:I would suggest watching The 700 Club and CBN News daily for about six months to get a feel for the attitudes of at least a few of the more "conservative" evangelicals.
I'd not call Pat's organization among the more conservative evangelicals. Active in conservative politics, yes.
Hmm... well... if fund-covetous TV preachers are considered the example of Christianity, I can almost agree with the negative tone of this thread.
jim stone wrote:the converters were under constant attack from invaders from
the east and in mortal danger; apparently forcing people to convert
in these areas was part of an effort to create a defensive
perimeter. Those who wish to indict Christianity or Catholicsm
on the basis of these events may do so. No one can
deny that some very bad things have been done
in the name of Christianity.
In true Christianity, you turn the other cheek, and God intervenes and takes care of you. For lack of God in your life, or oganization, you're pretty much on your own...and premeditated murder is a good strategy for survival, or geographic expansion--all for the cause. Of course, to play the part of an unqualified apologist, or justificationist, to say - those who wish to indict Christianity or Catholicsm on the basis of these events may do so - is akin to the type of reasoning we see all to often with other muderers who are in deep denial. This isn't about whether some very bad things were done in Christianity, because as any reasonable minded person already knows...this wasn't Christianity at all.
Walden wrote:Hmm... well... if fund-covetous TV preachers are considered the example of Christianity, I can almost agree with the negative tone of this thread.
Darwin wrote:I would suggest watching The 700 Club and CBN News daily for about six months to get a feel for the attitudes of at least a few of the more "conservative" evangelicals.
I'd not call Pat's organization among the more conservative evangelicals. Active in conservative politics, yes.
Thus the quotes.
Hmm... well... if fund-covetous TV preachers are considered the example of Christianity, I can almost agree with the negative tone of this thread.
Hey! God talks directly to Pat--even told him to run for President a while back. (Of course, seeing the results, I figured He was just yankin' ol' Pat's chain for a laugh, but Pat doesn't seem to have gotten the joke.)
I see that Jimmy Swaggart is back, by the way--all forgiven, re-reborn, and better than ever. Doesn't look like Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye will ever get back together again, though.
Mike Wright
"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
--Goethe
I've been a bit hard on Christianity to some extent because of personal experiences throughout my lifetime with the Christians around me.
I grew up in a heavily fundamentalist area where it was considered proper for any adult to interrogate (and intimidate) any child at any time to make sure s/he was right with God. I endured hundreds of such interrogations during my childhood, and for that matter, throughout my adulthood as well. I went to church and Sunday school regularly, but rather young (maybe 10 or 12 years old) decided something didn't add up and became agnostic.
That began a search for authentic spirituality that led me towards Eastern mysticism, and then eventually circled back and incorporated an understanding of Jesus' life and teaching in that context, beginning with a study of Thomas Merton and the Christian mystics and more recently, the historical/archaelogical discoveries discussed by Elaine Pagels in "Beyond Belief" where she discusses early Christian writings, and particularly the relationship between The Gospel of Thomas and The Gospel of John in the foundations of what we now call Christianity.
While Arleen was recovering from her heart surgery, Lalitha, our 13 year old adopted daughter from India, stayed with the family of a friend from school. They brought her to church on Sunday (she likes to go to church), where the preacher pointed at her from the pulpit. He ordered her to stand and, in front of the congregation, demanded to know if she worshiped pagan gods.
On the other hand, I've encountered saintly people as well, both lay and clergy. I have a lot of contact with Mennonites in connection with my mobile home business, and I usually feel uplifted by my conversations with them. The few I've engaged in discussions of religion have been especially nonjudgmental and openminded, and I've always felt refreshed after a contact with one of them. Most of them seem to sense that I am spiritually and morally sincere and conscientious, and they relate to that instead of trying to impose a superficial construct.
I guess my intent in posting some of the things I've said has been to try to make it clear that things done in the name of Christianity don't automatically have a special goodness about them, and it would serve people well to take a closer look at things. There are many good things done in Jesus' name, as Jim points out, but all that claims to be Christian in name doesn't necessarily reflect the true spirit of Christ.
On the other hand, there clearly are a good many people, and there have been throughout time, who seem to have succeeded at understanding the true meaning of following Jesus' example. It may be that the balance of civilization has been secured through various challenges and perils by the influence of such people. I don't doubt that it is so.
Darwin wrote:
I see that Jimmy Swaggart is back, by the way--all forgiven, re-reborn, and better than ever.
Not so sure Swaggart ever entirely went away. It's just that he had to reduce the number of his stations till his finances picked back up. This has happened a few times, inasmuch as he's had more than one rather public fall.
Darwin wrote:Doesn't look like Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye will ever get back together again, though.
Yup... they divorced and remarried others. Jim, however, has a daily telecast, from Branson, that is syndicated over several religious networks.
Jerry Freeman wrote:
While Arleen was recovering from her heart surgery, Lalitha, our 13 year old adopted daughter from India, stayed with the family of a friend from school. They brought her to church on Sunday (she likes to go to church), where the preacher pointed at her from the pulpit. He ordered her to stand and, in front of the congregation, demanded to know if she worshiped pagan gods.
I've never seen such a thing happen, but I can imagine it would put you in a bad mood.
Darwin wrote:
I see that Jimmy Swaggart is back, by the way--all forgiven, re-reborn, and better than ever.
Not so sure Swaggart ever entirely went away. It's just that he had to reduce the number of his stations till his finances picked back up. This has happened a few times, inasmuch as he's had more than one rather public fall.
Darwin wrote:Doesn't look like Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye will ever get back together again, though.
Yup... they divorced and remarried others. Jim, however, has a daily telecast, from Branson, that is syndicated over several religious networks.
Good for him!
Mike Wright
"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
--Goethe
Jerry Freeman wrote:
While Arleen was recovering from her heart surgery, Lalitha, our 13 year old adopted daughter from India, stayed with the family of a friend from school. They brought her to church on Sunday (she likes to go to church), where the preacher pointed at her from the pulpit. He ordered her to stand and, in front of the congregation, demanded to know if she worshiped pagan gods.
I've never seen such a thing happen, but I can imagine it would put you in a bad mood.
Neither have I but my husband had a similar experience as a teenager- everyone who was "saved" was instructed to stand, then told to look around at the sinners. Needless to say, he was not real anxious to go to any church, much less that one, again. (this happened in a Baptist church, but NOT what would be considered mainstream Baptist
I am glad you gave us this insite into what was behind your posts on this topic Jerry. I would suggest that I would keep my kids as far away as possible from this "church" your daughter attended and since she likes to go, to perhaps make visits to several other churches in your area- you both might find one that fits. That's how we came to go to our local Episcopal church.
Many years ago when my daughters were in elementary school, they asked if they could attend an afterschool bible club. I said ok. Soon after, my younger one, 8 yrs old at the time, started crying at bedtime, afraid to go to sleep because she might die and go to hell. Some questioning of mine led me to realize that this is what she was getting at the bible club meetings. I began my search, and we started attending the Episcopal church- much less "hell fire and brimstone". That worked for us.
"Let low-country intruder approach a cove
And eyes as gray as icicle fangs measure stranger
For size, honesty, and intent." John Foster West
