Episcopal Church - My childhood parish split

Socializing and general posts on wide-ranging topics. Remember, it's Poststructural!
jim stone
Posts: 17193
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by jim stone »

Jerry Freeman wrote:Oh, come on, Jim.

We're fighting a war in Iraq today because of the way the British handled themselves in that part of the world, and we're fighting worldwide terrorism, to a large part because the puppet kings the Brits installed in Saudi Arabia aligned themselves with the Wahabist sect and funded madrasas around the world to spread their virulent form of anti-western radical Islam. The chickens are coming home to roost.

I'm not saying there was nothing good that they did, but please stop citing examples of good and trying to pretend that erases the negative. Nothing is all good or all bad, and I wouldn't have taken this side of the argument if the other side weren't being advanced as if it were the whole story.

Best wishes,
Jerry
I don't get this. We're fighting a war in Iraq because of the Brits?
Because of the Brits we're fighting a war on terror? I actually
don't know enough about the history of this part of the
world, but I don't see this as the sort of instance of colonialism
and Christianization and 'uplift' you were talking about,
in any case.

Nobody has claimed that there was nothing negative,
in Christianity or British colonialism! The post above
expressed an ambivalence about all that. But it is
thinkable that there was truth in some of these
claims of superiority. I know it isn't what one is
supposed to say, but India is no small thing.

A long while ago I said that I thought that Christianity
is more socially engaged than is Buddhism, by
its theological nature, so that issues like
women priests and gay marriage are harder
for Christians to ignore and more of a problem.
And I gave examples of how Christian
theology led to social involvement.
And then there was the answering voice,
'But what about all of the bad things
Christianity had done--the good doesn't
negate the bad.' Perhaps, but what I said
could still be true.

So I return to the original point--the
Church has little choice but to confront
such issues as women clergy and gay marriage,
due to the nature of Christian
theology and God's involvement in
the world.
User avatar
Jerry Freeman
Posts: 6074
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Now playing in Northeastern Connecticut
Contact:

Post by Jerry Freeman »

You would have to look at the history of the Middle East after WWI and especially the way the British set things up for themselves in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. I think if they had done differently, the shape of things today would be much different.

One world conflict flows into another. WWII could be seen to some extent as a result of the humiliation and impoverishment of Germany through the imposition of the Treaty of Versailes' sanctions. Much of what's happening today between Islam and the West also traces back to WWI and the way the Middle East was carved up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Of course, it traces back far further than that, but as I said, one world conflict flows into the next. History does seem doomed to repeat itself, in many instances.

I agree with you that we've gotten pretty far afield from the direction we started. Perhaps we've chewed on this one enough.

Best wishes,
Jerry
User avatar
Jerry Freeman
Posts: 6074
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Now playing in Northeastern Connecticut
Contact:

Post by Jerry Freeman »

jim stone wrote:... but what I said
could still be true.
Absolutely. I don't dispute a word of it, and I appreciate your bringing it to mind.

Best wishes,
Jerry
User avatar
Lorenzo
Posts: 5726
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Oregon, USA

Post by Lorenzo »

jim stone wrote:--the Church has little choice but to confront
such issues as women clergy and gay marriage,
due to the nature of Christian
theology and God's involvement in
the world.
What do we outsiders think is involved in belonging to the "clergy?" I would suggest that becoming an ordained priest is far more complex than just being a spiritual "person," a nice religiously educated member, or shephard of the flock. It may work in other denominations of Christianity for women to fill that role just as well or better than men, but I would suggest there is a history of disciplines that are uniquely male oriented in the Catholic Church, and that are also much older than Christianity.

We might do well to explore what we think are the tests and qualifications for entry (not all make the grade), and then get some expert education from within. I could ask my cousin--who's a priest in the Catholic Church--but he doesn't reply to emails soon enough to get included.
User avatar
Jerry Freeman
Posts: 6074
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Now playing in Northeastern Connecticut
Contact:

Post by Jerry Freeman »

For some reason, I get this without having to log in:
CHAPTER ONE
Faust's Metropolis
A History of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By ALEXANDRA RICHIE
Carroll & Graf Publishers, Inc.

History, Myth, and the Birth of Berlin

Set him down here close at hand -
to find new life in this land
of myth and legend ...
(Goethe, Faust, Part II, Act 2)

STENDHAL ONCE SAID OF BERLIN: 'What could have possessed people to found a city in the middle of all this sand?' He was not the only visitor to wonder at Berlin's curious location, its parvenu style, its seeming lack of roots. August Endell said it was a place of 'dreary desolation', and even the German nationalist historian Heinrich von Treitschke remarked that the Germans were the only people to have achieved greatness without having built a great capital. In his famous work Berlin: Ein Stadtschicksal Karl Scheffler contrasted Berlin with other European capitals, those glorious places which 'are the centres of a country, are rich and beautiful cities, harmoniously developed organisms of history'. Berlin, on the other hand, developed 'artificially, under all kinds of difficulties, and had to adapt to unfavourable circumstances'. It was a 'colonial city' made up of the dispossessed and uprooted. And, when one views the gigantic building sites and new developments covering the latest incarnation of Berlin, Scheffler's words seem even more appropriate today than when he wrote them nearly a century ago: 'Berlin is a city that never is, but is always in the process of becoming.'

Geography does not make history but it does influence it, and Berlin's location seems to embody its erratic, insouciant nature. It is striking precisely because, unlike Paris or Rome or Istanbul, Berlin seems to have come from nowhere, wrenched from the sandy soil by some hidden force. One looks in vain for great rivers or lakes, for ports or mountains, for natural riches or fortifications, and as one approaches there is precious little to suggest the presence of one of Europe's great cities. Instead, Berlin lies in a long sweeping plain dotted with pine forests, marshes and swamps which stretch out until cut by the Oder in the east and the Elbe in the west. The land south and east extends down into wooded base moraine with small hills, chains of lakes and streams created by the distortions and deposits of the last Ice Age. This area, known as the Mark Brandenburg, covers an area of around a quarter of a million square kilometres and forms part of the great Grodno-Warsaw-Berlin depression. The German capital lies in the centre of this strangely inhospitable land, exposed as it is to the cold winds from the east. It is dear both from the dearth of natural features and from the vast network of rail tracks, old industrial slums, roads and factories that Berlin was made into a formidable powerhouse not by nature, but by the industry and the politics of man.

The exposed position has made Berlin, like Warsaw and Moscow, subject to endless migrations and wars. Tacitus defined the Germani as people who inhabit the dense forests between the 'Rhine and the Vistula' and claimed that they were a 'pure' race who had lived there since time immemorial. He was wrong. These plains dwellers were -- and are -- the product of countless population shifts which have occurred over millennia. Berlin history made a mockery of notions of German racial purity which became so popular in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Nor were migrations a product of the industrial age; in Berlin the pattern was set in prehistoric times.

From the very beginning the region was populated by successive waves of different peoples and cultures. Humans reached the Berlin area around 55,000 BC, but settlements were first formed at the end of the last Ice Age, around 20,000 BC, when hunter-gatherers followed migrating animals north to the area around the river Spree. The earliest farms with their small enclosures of domesticated cows and pigs appeared as late as 4000 BC; one still lies buried under the famous Weimar horseshoe housing estate, the Britzer Hufeisensiedlung. The last of the Stone Age peoples represented the Kugelamphoren Kultur and moved into areas from Tegel to Rixdorf and even on to the present Museum Island around 2000 BC, leaving glimpses of their artistic prowess in the beautiful pottery deposited at sacred religious sites. They too disappeared with the coming of the Bronze Age, which saw a succession of different groups in districts from Spandau to Steglitz. The most successful of these were the 'Lausitzer' people, who by 1300 had reached the substantial population of 1,000 people. But they, too, would disappear around 700 BC, when the climate began to cool, and were replaced by the Germanic 'Jastorf' people whose weapons, tools and utensils are dotted throughout the soil from Spandau to Mahlsdorf. A site on the Hauptstrasse in Schoneberg contains the remains of horses and the cooked bones of domesticated animals including pigs and sheep, but most incredible are the finds of inlaid bronze jewellery with twisted threads of silver as delicate and beautiful as any found at Celtic sites of the same period." But despite the fact that people had lived in the Berlin area since the last Ice Age it was the next group, the Germanic 'Semnonen' of the first century BC, who would later be referred to as 'original Berliners'. This was in part because the Semnonen were the first to appear on the pages of recorded history. They were described not by the Germans, who were illiterate, but by the Romans.

Berlin's history was shaped by an event which did not take place. The area was never conquered by the Romans. Unlike Paris or London or Cologne or Trier, Berlin would not be able to boast of its imperial heritage nor look to romanitas, with its ideals of government and architecture and use of Latin by the educated elite, and it was this which contributed to Berlin's later lack of self-confidence. The Romans were not ignorant of the peoples beyond the Elbe, but except for one brief foray into the area they did not attempt to conquer the region. This momentous decision changed the destiny of the city.

It is not known what the Germanic tribes thought of the Romans who edged up to the river Elbe around the time of the birth of Christ, but for their part the Romans viewed these frightening tribesmen with a mixture of awe and contempt. Julius Caesar had incorporated the river Rhine into the empire by 31 BC but had refused to allow expansion further east; not only did he believe that the dark forests were home to fearful beasts and magical creatures like unicorns, but he and other Romans considered the Germans to be too barbaric to be absorbed into the empire. General Velleius was typical when he dismissed them as 'wild creatures' incapable of learning arts or laws, or said that they resembled human beings only in that they could speak. It was Julius Caesar's adopted son Augustus who decided to capture the land east of the Rhine and to push the boundary of the empire up to the Elbe. In a campaign led by Augustus' stepsons Nero Drusus and Tiberius Roman troops reached the mysterious river bank in 3 BC. The legate L. Domitius Ahenobarbus actually crossed the water to meet some of the tribesmen in order to conclude amicitia or treaties of peace. Despite this success Augustus forbade his armies to cross the Elbe. This decision was apparently sanctioned by the gods, for it was said that when Tiberius' brother Drusus approached the water a horrible giantess had appeared and warned him to go back as he had only a short time to live. Drusus retreated and died a few days later, convincing his companions that they had in fact seen a deity. Shortly afterwards, in AD 9, Varus was ambushed in the Teutoberg forest. In one of the worst routs in Roman history three legions were massacred by Arminius, the chief of the Cherusci tribe, who came to be known in Germany as the legendary Hermann. The Romans lost control of the territory between the Rhine and the Elbe, and only a handful of traders dared brave the dangers of the 'Amber Road' which led up to the Baltic Sea. Those who returned continued to fascinate Rome with their tales of the strange religious rituals and the fierce tribesmen. to be found in the land beyond the Elbe.

The forests of the north remained unconquered, but they were nevertheless the subject of much popular literature in Rome. The Teutons were mentioned in classical sources as early as 400 BC and the word 'German' was first used by Posidonus in 90 BC. Caesar wrote about the Teutons in his Gallic War; Livy devoted his 104th book of histories to them; Pliny the Elder followed with his now lost work German Wars and in Naturalis Historia; and both Cassius Dio and Velleius Paterculus described aspects of the German campaigns in their histories of Rome. But by far the best known and most influential account was written in AD 98 by Cornelius Tacitus. It is called De origine et situ Germanorum or Germania.

Tacitus had not been to Germany but had lived along the Roman frontier, had read contemporary works about the region and had talked to the soldiers and traders who had travelled there. His account is an intriguing mixture of fact and fiction. Tacitus also seems to have had a definite moral or political purpose in mind when writing the book. Germania was published in the reign of the Emperor Trajan, who had served in the German provinces. In some passages it appears that Tacitus is trying to warn the Romans not to be complacent about the Germans, and to show them that if the Teutons should ever combine their skill in battle with Roman discipline they would be invincible. If Rome does nothing or continues to degenerate, he argues, and if the Germans should ever organize against them the empire will be lost: 'Long I pray may foreign nations persist, if not in loving us, at least in hating one another.' Apart from this political warning and despite the historical inaccuracies Germania was the first systematic attempt to describe the land on the edge of the civilized Roman world, beyond the Albis or Elbe which, he laments, was 'well known and much talked of in earlier days, but [is] now a mere name'. Tacitus was also the first to shed some light on the Elbe German Semnonen, the people who lived in the region around what is now the city of Berlin.

Tacitus' descriptions of the Semnonen, with their topknots and their warlike appearance, are particularly vivid. For him, an author with republican sympathies, the very structure of their tribes was a model of good government. Each was a state in itself with no permanent central government and no king; the supreme authority was found in the assembly of all free men who met at intervals at a Thing or Moot, where chiefs were chosen to decide on specific questions of war and justice. The chiefs themselves possessed great wealth and had large retinues made up mostly of family members. According to Tacitus, chastity was highly regarded, as were family loyalty and ferocity in battle; wives even accompanied their husbands to war. He did note, however, that during peacetime the men were lazy, gluttonous gamblers, and drunkards capable of acts of appalling brutality. They were also deeply religious and at a set time 'deputations from all the tribes of the same stock would gather in a grove hallowed by the auguries of their ancestors and by immemorial law'. The sacrifice of a human victim in the name of all 'marks the grisly opening of their savage ritual'. The meeting place in a sacred grove in the forest is 'the centre of their whole religion ... the cradle of the race and the dwelling-place of the supreme god to whom all things are subject and obedient'. Tacitus talks of tree and horse worship; gods included Ziu, who was probably derived from Zeus and later ousted by Odin, while the goddess of mother earth was Nerthus. A number of her shrines, situated near water, have been found in the Berlin area -- including at a spring in Spandau, which was found filled with the remains of birds, and in Neukolln, which was littered with the skeletons of dogs and other animals. The sacrifice of horses was also important to the Semnonen, as were gifts made to lesser deities -- wooden carvings, pots of fat and hazelnuts.

Archaeological remains have verified many of Tacitus' claims. We know that the villages were small and that freemen had their own long houses of wood-post construction with the cracks filled and covered in lime for protection against the elements and vermin. The houses had a hearth and a stable under a gable roof and families lived together with their animals. Arable land was divided into sectors and the ploughing and sowing was done in common. Remains of an industrial area were found in the Donaustrasse in NeukolIn which consisted of wells and three lime kilns, there were even facilities for smelting iron. Even so, the Germanic tribes were not sophisticated compared to their Roman cousins: agriculture was primitive, and instead of enlarging their resources by cutting down the forests and cultivating new areas they preferred to conquer the nearest fertile land for themselves, a practice which was particularly common on the provincial borders. By the second century AD ever more Teutons were clamouring to get inside the empire. The population of Europe had begun to shift once again.

When Tacitus was writing Germania Teutonic tribes extended deep into eastern Europe, past present-day Poland and into Ukraine. Had Europe been more stable the Semnonen might well have remained in place and become the forebears of present-day Berliners. But, as Tacitus had warned, the Teutons were set to invade Rome itself In the middle of the second century the German Marcomanni tribe suddenly surged across the Danube into Italy. They were held back with difficulty by the Emperor Marcus Aurelius but fifty years later the Goths conquered present-day Romania and spread throughout the Balkans into Asia Minor, while the Alamanni broke through the Roman Limes and moved to the Rhine and the Danube. The Berlin area was affected in turn around AD 180 when the Elbe German Semnonen suddenly packed up and moved to the south-west, eventually settling by the river Main. They were replaced around AD 260 by the Burgundians, who moved from the Danish island of Bornholm (Borgundarholmr) and whose remains have been found in the Berlin-Rudow area.

Up until this point the movement of peoples towards Rome had been deflected by a series of strong emperors who managed to protect the old imperial boundaries, but in 375 the Teutons attacked once again. This time the onslaught was unstoppable. The Germanic tribes were no longer moving of their own free will but were being forced west by one of the most ferocious charges in European history, the attack of the Huns. The 'movement of the peoples', or the Volkerwanderungzeit, had begun in earnest, and the migrations destroyed the old ethnic make-up of the European continent for ever.

It was Kipling who said:


For all we have and are,
For all our children's fate,
Stand up and take the war,
The Hun is at the gate!
The word 'Hun' still conjures up horrifying images in the minds of Europeans. During the First World War the name was given to the Germans accused of murdering babies in Belgium; in the Second the young soldier Alexander Solzhenitsyn, horrified by the carnage meted out by the Soviets during their conquest of East Prussia in 1945, likened the Red Army to the mongol hordes. Nobody knows why these people suddenly left the steppes north of the Aral Sea and swept into Europe in the fourth century -- perhaps there had been a change in the climate like that which prompted the Vikings to raid with such restless energy -- but when the Roman Ammianus Marcellinus asked them where they were born and where they came from he reported that 'they cannot tell you'. Their unstoppable expansion into Europe was one of the most gory in history. Romans wrote of their hideous features, which they believed to be the result of self-mutilation; all referred to their masterful horsemanship and deadly archery, but above all it was the pleasure they were reported to take when butchering. their victims which left a lasting reputation for ruthlessness and barbarism.

As the Hun advanced westwards the Goths were driven to take refuge in the Roman Empire. Teutons surged over the frontier, in 406 the Vandals attacked southern Gaul and Spain and then moved on to Africa; the Burgundians, who had for a time settled around Berlin, now moved westwards. The Berlin area had become a part of the Hunnic confederacy by 420; indeed a grave was found in Neukolln-Berlin in which a warrior lies buried beside his horse according to their custom. The Burgundians; from Berlin were not yet safe; in 436 the Hun caught up with them in Worms and drove them on to the Rhone valley, where they gave their name to Burgundy. In 450 Attila the Hun moved his forces across Germany with such brutality and violence that it was said no grass would grow where his horse had stepped. Then, on the eve of the campaign of 453, fate intervened. On the drunken night of his wedding to the beautiful German Ildiko (called Kriemhild in legend) Attila had a stroke and died and his kingdom was destroyed. The battles did yield one cultural treasure, namely an epic which tells the story of the battle between the Burgundian King Gundahar and Attila the Hun. It was called the Nibelungenlied (the Burgundians are the Nibelungs) and became the basis for Wagner's cyclical Buhnenfestspiel, Der Ring des Nibelungen.

By the time of Attila's death the old integrity of Europe had already been shattered and thousands of restless people were on the move. The sixth-century emperor Justinian tried to keep the empire together but the barbarian invasions did not stop; the gradual decline of Rome and cross-fertilization of Roman and barbarian culture and customs continued. In the north the Slavs, who had lived around the eastern Carpathian mountains since perhaps 2000 BC, began to migrate westward. It was they who now moved into the area around Berlin.

The Slavs were the latest newcomers to the lands which would later be known as Poland and Germany; by the seventh century they had spread over most of eastern Europe from the Baltic to the Peloponnese and had crossed the Oder into the Elbe-Saale region and into what is now Germany. The border between Germans and Slavs was later confirmed in the 843 Treaty of Verdun: it ran along the river Elbe and down a boundary which cut north-west from Dresden to Magdeburg, past Hamburg and up to the North Sea. The Slavs founded a number of cities along the border, including old Lubeck, Meissen and Leipzig, whose name was derived from the Slav word lipsk or linden tree.

As the Slavs moved towards the Berlin area they found a vast, depopulated land with only a few Germans remaining scattered in small settlements. These stragglers were not massacred; on the contrary, archaeological evidence in over forty sites in Barnim and Teltow shows that the remaining Germans were assimilated into the new communities and that the Slavs even adopted some of the old Germanic place names like the river 'Havel' and the 'Muggelsee', which survive to this day. The great Theodor Fontane was one of the few nineteenth-century Germans to acknowledge Berlin's debt to this much maligned people, and in the third part of the Wanderungen durch die Mark Brandenburg describes how the myriad lakes, streams and hills of the Berlin area which end in '-itz' like Wandlitz, '-ick' as in Glienicke and '-ow' like Teltow had in fact been named by the Slavs. Nineteenth-century Germans would have been shocked to learn that the capital was not named after the noble 'bear', but was old Elbe-Slav brl, meaning 'swamp' or 'marsh'. But long before Berlin existed there were dozens of Slavic settlements within the present city limits: Gatow and Glienicke, Steglitz and Marzahn were Slavic; Pankow was named for the Slavic word pania, meaning 'flat moor'; pottery shards confirm the existence of a Slavic radial village in Babelsberg; Lutzow (Charlottenburg) was founded in the fifth century, and even nearby Potsdam began as a Slavic stronghold. But by far the most important settlements for the future of Berlin were two gigantic fortresses which now lie only a U-Bahn ride away from one another on either side of the city, but which at one time represented the borders of two great territories: Kopenick to the south-east, and Spandau to the north-west.

If nineteenth- and early twentieth-century Germans admitted the presence of the Slavs at all they tended to dismiss them as coarse and unsophisticated -- all they had built there was seen as uncivilized compared with superior Germanic culture. This was ahistorical, and had more to do with contemporary German politics than with ancient history. In reality the Slavic fortresses of Spandau and Kopenick were not only highly developed; they created an infrastructure which would prove crucial to the development of Berlin itself.

Each fortress represented the boundary of a great Slavic principality and although the Slavs were collectively referred to by the Latin term Venedi -- the Wends -- there were two distinct groups in the regions. Those who had settled on the river Havel were known as the Hevellians, rulers of the provintia heveldun. Their headquarters were at Brannabor (Brandenburg) but their second town was at Spandau, which was built in the 750s and which already contained around 250 people by the end of the century. The Slavs who settled around the Spree were known as the Sprewans and their province was called the provintia Zpriauuani; they were based around Mittenwalde and founded the villages of Mahlsdorf, Kaulsdorf, Pankow and Treptow. Their capital was Kopenick, itself founded on an old Neolithic site. The name was derived from the Slavic word for 'settlement on an earth hill' and, although protected by the Spree, the fort had a commanding view over the area. In 825 it was fortified with high oval wooden walls of about fifty metres in length complete with towers and palisades and gates.

The first written evidence of such fortresses dates from the records of a 798 expedition by a Frisian fleet under Charlemagne which made its way up the tributaries of the Havel and saw typical Havellian fortresses there. An even more detailed record is found in one of the most extraordinary travel diaries in the history of central Europe, the eye-witness account written in 970 by the Jewish merchant Ibrahim ibn Ja'quab. Ibrahim was born in Muslim Spain and travelled north as an envoy for the caliph of Cordoba. Like so many masterpieces of the ancient world the diary was saved by an Arab scholar, in this case the eleventh-century Abu Obaid Abdallah al Bekri, who found it so impressive that he reproduced it in his Book of Ways and Lands. Ibrahim ibn Ja'quab's journey took him along the established trade routes through Prague and probably to Cracow, and then towards Mecklenburg, where it is thought he described the settlement at Schwerin. He was struck by the large, secure Slavic fortresses with their high wooden walls strengthened by mounds of packed earth and protected by rivers so that one could only reach them on 'a wooden bridge over the water. Evidence shows that even the smaller fortresses at Potsdam, Treptow and Blankenburg were built on islands and were not merely defensive but housed carpenters, weavers, tanners, furriers and other tradesmen. Ibrahim ibn Ja'quab noted that the Slavs 'are especially energetic in agriculture'. The fortresses also provided a safe haven for the priestly hierarchy who kept the shrines for Dazbag, the god of the sun, Jarovit, the god of spring, and the fertility gods Rod and Rozanicy in their midst. Ibrahim also recognized that the Slavs were skilled merchants and that 'their trade on land reaches to the Ruthenians and to Constantinople'. The fortresses of Spandau-Burgwall and Kopenick had grown powerful from their position on an important medieval east--west trade route which extended from the Rhine and Flanders through Magdeburg, on to Brennabor, over the Berlin area to Leubus and Posen and on to Kiev. Muslims and Jews were the most influential traders, regularly travelling from China to Africa and up the Caspian Sea and the Volga to the Baltic; trade with the Latin west was maintained primarily by Jewish merchants who, according to the early ninth-century geographer Ibn Khurradadhbeh, were highly sophisticated and could 'speak Arabic, Persian, Greek, Frankish, Spanish and Slavonic. They travel from west to east and from east to west, by land and sea.' The Jews were not the only merchants to visit the fortresses, however, and although the Slavs themselves used cloth as currency around 1,000 foreign coins of Arabian, German, English, Scandinavian, Polish, Bohemian and Hungarian origin have been found there. Even at this early date Spandau and Kopenick were filled with international dealers: Scandinavian traders had moved in by the ninth century and Arabian and Jewish traders predominated by the year 1000. Dozens of products changed hands -- from skins, honey, potash, wax, textiles, slate and weapons to jewellery from Kiev and salt from the Rhineland. Slaves were bought and sold; indeed the word 'Slav' was first given to the hapless victims captured in the east and then dragged across Europe to be sold in the markets around the Mediterranean. By AD 1000 the Slavs had created prosperous, stable communities on the banks of the Havel and the Spree. Like the Semnonen before them they might well have become the founders of modern Berlin. But Europe was about to undergo another herculean change. This time people would move in from the west. These warriors and settlers would be Christian.

The spread of Christianity was one of the definitive movements in the creation of modern Europe. The advance began within the bounds of the Roman Empire during the first centuries AD; the first bishoprics; were established in northern Europe by the fourth century -- the bishop of Rheims, for example, was first mentioned in 314 -- a process accelerated by the conversion of the legendary Frankish king Clovis. For those outside the empire conversion was often brought about by force, and one of the most successful of these Christian warriors, the man who essentially created the Holy Roman Empire, was called Charles the Great or Charlemagne.

Charlemagne was born in 742 and became king of the Frankish realm in 768. He was determined not only to resurrect the glory of Rome but to expand its boundaries, to spread Christianity as far as possible and to convert or eradicate the Saxon heathens. After establishing himself in his mighty castle at Aachen he spearheaded a campaign which would take him far into Germany. For eighteen years he waged a bloody war against the Saxons, putting down resistance and massacring those who opposed change. After the battle at Verden in the 782 war he had 4,500 Saxon hostages beheaded in cold blood. Not surprisingly, Saxon resistance was crushed by 804 and Charlemagne's became the first imperial army to reach the river Elbe since Augustus. In 800 he was confident enough to proclaim himself imperator et augustus, the ancient title of the victorious empire, and he was crowned in St Peter's Basilica by the pope in a dramatic ceremony on Christmas Day.

Despite his ferocity on the battlefield Charlemagne proved himself an admirable administrator, sponsoring the arts and education and dividing the conquered territory into administrative regions called Marken (marches), which were governed by loyal counts or dukes known as Markgrafen or margraves. Charlemagne also favoured the establishment of bishoprics in the conquered lands and made Hamburg the first diocesan seat east of the Elbe. In the end Charlemagne created a new boundary down the centre of Europe called the Limes Sorabicus or Sorbian Wall, which effectively separated Christians from the heathen. It ran from Regensburg through Erfurt, and along the Elbe to Kiel. Berlin still lay a hundred miles beyond the border but Christianity was drawing ever closer. The nearest outpost was a settlement founded on the Elbe. It was called Magdeburg.

The first thing one sees when journeying towards Magdeburg is the great cathedral which rises up from the centre of the small city, its great spires dwarfing everything else around. The building is a mere hint of the city's role as a beacon on the edge of the Christian world, a stronghold which once lay between 'Europe' and the wilderness. Like Trier under the Romans and like West Berlin during the Cold War Magdeburg became a splendid showcase meant both to dazzle and intimidate the poor pagans to the east. The cathedral itself, which started as a small Romanesque church, was regarded as so important that it was endowed by the English king Alfred the Great's grand-daughter with eighteen casks of gold. Even in its earliest incarnation, it served as a base for missionaries determined to convert the unenlightened Slavs to the east.

Magdeburg continued to be a frontier post under Charlemagne's successors but it was not until the reign of Henry the Fowler, who ruled from 919 to 936, that a fresh attempt was made to push the borders of Christianity eastward. Like his son Otto I, Henry believed that Magdeburg should be a metropolitan see 'for all the people of the Slavs beyond the Elbe and the Saale, lately converted and to be converted to God', and from his palace in the Harz mountains he ordered the creation of bishoprics at Havelberg and the foundation of Quedlinburg and Merseburg. The desire to create new strongholds was not simply the result of religious zeal; Henry and his contemporaries felt -- quite legitimately -- that Christian Europe was under constant threat and that such outposts were essential to its defence. In 845 the Norsemen had decimated the newly founded town of Hamburg and in 875 wiped out a great Saxon and Thuringian army on the Luneburg Heath while the Magyars from Hungary, the 'scourge of Europe', attacked regularly and fought their way as far north as Bremen. The new church settlements were built not only as religious centres but also as fortresses to protect the duchy of Saxony against the Hungarians. When Henry died in 936 his son Otto I, who reigned until 973, was determined to continue in his father's footsteps and expand eastward. This was evident in the ceremony of his investiture as duke of Saxony: 'I bring before you Otto, chosen by God, designated by Henry, formerly lord of the kingdom, and now made king by all the princes,' boomed the archbishop of Mainz. 'Accept this sword with which you are to eject all the enemies of Christ, barbarians and bad Christians. For all power over the whole empire of the Franks has been given to you by divine authority, so as to assure the peace of all Christians.'

Until now the Slavic Hevellians had been spared the Christian onslaught but the peace ended suddenly in 948. In that year Otto I crossed the Elbe and attacked their capital Brennobar. The heathen settlement was overrun, Slavic protestors were killed, the celebrated pagan shrine was levelled and a bishopric was put in its place. The town was given a new name: Brandenburg.

Brandenburg was turned into a centre of evangelizing activity. Christians quickly moved in, rounded up the local Slavs and forced them to convert at swordpoint. Otto was so successful in his drive eastward that by the end of his reign he had reached the river Oder, dividing the new lands into Marks. The area which would become the Nordmark or North Mark and which encompassed the territory of the Hevellians and the Sprewan Slavs extended from the Elbe to the Oder and from Lausitz to the Elbe--Peene line. Furthermore Otto finally defeated the troublesome Magyars at the Battle of Lechfeld in 955, a victory which brought him such fame that he was henceforth referred to as Otto the Great. Rather than protect his conquests in the north, however, Otto set out on three separate campaigns in Italy and in 962 marched to Rome, where the Pope placed the magnificent gold and gem-encrusted crown of the Holy Roman Emperor on his head. But his victory did not bring the desired peace. Otto I died in 973 and, rather than return to the north, his successor Otto II remained in a bid to drive the Greeks and Saracens from Italy. In 982 he faced a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Muslims of Sicily. It left him gravely weakened, and the newly won lands and new bishoprics at Havelberg and Brandenburg were left undefended. And it was then that the Slavs struck back.

The Slavs of the North Mark had been resentful at the coming of the Christians and of the strange new religion which forbade the worship of their fertility goddesses and the shrines to the spirits of nature. Worse still, the new masters had forced them to pay tributes to the Germanic religious fortresses, payments which were extracted by sheer force if necessary. When the Slavs heard the news of Otto II's disastrous defeat in Italy they were encouraged to take up arms. The response was the Great Slav Uprising of 983.

The revolt was led by the Hevellians, who were determined to retake their holy capital of Brennabor. In a well-orchestrated attack they set upon the city, sacking the new Ottonian church and massacring the Christian inhabitants there. On 29 June 983 the bishopric of Havelberg was destroyed, and the small church at the Spandauer Burg was decimated three weeks later. The Slavs then swept through the Mark, killing monks and settlers. By July most German outposts had been razed to the ground, and although a handful of bishops dared to remain they were forced into hiding and lived without cathedrals or diocese. The rest of the population reverted to their pagan practices. The Germanic Christian drive eastward had been halted and Magdeburg once again became the true boundary of the German Christian world. Otto was devastated and died in 983 in the knowledge that he had failed at his most important task -- the defence of Christendom against the heathen. The unhappy emperor was buried at St Peter's in Rome. Unfortunately for the Slavs in the North Mark, Otto's death was not the end of the threat to their way of life. The leader of a completely different area had also recently undergone conversion to Christianity and was now eager to expand his territory in the name of the Church. This place lay not in German lands, but far to the east of the Spree and Havel in a place which would soon be known as Poland. The Slavs of the Berlin area were now sandwiched between two powerful Christian blocs. The race was on to see which side could conquer it first.

The coming of Christianity to Poland was of immense importance not only to the Slavs of the Berlin area but to the unfolding history of the entire region. The presence of a vast Catholic kingdom to the east of Germany would shape the history of central Europe and of Berlin for centuries to come, not least because of the rivalry which even now emerged between the German Christians and their Polish counterparts.

The Germans had hoped to Christianize all of northern Europe by pushing eastward from Magdeburg and on to Kiev Rus, knowing that under the Ottonian system the establishment of religious centres was inextricably linked to political conquest. The sudden emergence of Poland foiled their plans. The early history of the Piast dynasty remains obscure but by the third quarter of the tenth century the Polish ruler was rising to prominence as quickly as the Saxon rulers had in the west. The first Polish prince, Mieszko I, was keen to extend his power throughout the region. This posed a problem for the Germans, and in particular for Otto I.

When Otto made Magdeburg an archbishopric in 961 he had seen it as the base from which all territory from Saxony to Russia would be Christianized, a move which would in turn have brought all of east central Europe under German control. Mieszko objected. Not only did he want to prevent German meddling in his affairs, he also wanted to increase his own territory. The first Polish ruler was still relatively weak compared to his powerful Saxon rival and had to tread carefully; indeed at one point he only managed to forestall an invasion by agreeing to accept German Christian missions on his land. To Otto's fury, however, in 966 he did the unthinkable. Instead of accepting Christianity from Germany Mieszko turned instead to Bohemia. By adopting Christianity from the south he had in one momentous act prevented the religious, administrative and political domination of Poland by the Holy Roman Emperor. Henceforth -- to the annoyance of the Germans -- Poland would grow to become an entirely separate and independent entity which would never succumb to the German vision of the Drang nach Osten -- the idea that they had a civilizing mission in the east.

For a time it looked as if the religious compromise between Poland and the Germans would hold. The new Holy Roman Emperor Otto III, who was half Greek and had been brought up in Italy, regarded his own people as somewhat primitive and was not obsessed by German domination of the east. On the contrary, he had been deeply shaken by the Slav uprising and by the disastrous campaigns of the 990s and was willing to leave the conversion of the troublesome pagan Slavs in the east to the Poles as long as they joined the confederation of Christian princes under his ultimate control. Unlike his predecessors he had a vision of Europe organized as a hierarchy of kings; indeed a diptych painted at the end of the tenth century shows him receiving the homage of four crowned women: Germany, Gaul, Rome and Slavonia -- the Slavic lands. He was sympathetic to the idea of Polish independence and, to the fury of leading German ecclesiastics, planned to set up a number of churches there which would be free from all German control.

Such German generosity to Poland is rare in history, but it had in part to do with the Polish response to a particular event which had deeply affected Otto III. This pious emperor had been a friend of Adalbertus, the former bishop of Prague. In 996 Pope Sylvester I had sent Adalbertus on a mission to convert the fierce East Prussians, and on his journey north that year the new Polish leader Boleslaw the Brave, Mieszko I's son, generously received him with full honours. The action was duly noted in Rome. Adalbertus continued on to East Prussia where the local tribesmen, who were not keen on conversion, simply murdered him. Rather than ignore his death the Poles purchased his body for a vast sum -- its weight in gold -- and created a shrine for him at Gniezno. Pope Sylvester I was so impressed by this show of piety that he took the unusual step of canonizing Adalbertus, elevating Gniezno to an archbishopric and creating bishoprics at Wroclaw (Breslau), Kolobrzeg (Kolberg) and Krakow (Cracow). It was the creation of a new archbishopric which finally severed the Polish Church from control of the German archbishopric at Magdeburg. The Poles now had an independent administration and took to Christianizing the west Slavic tribes with as much gusto as the Germans had done -- the great bronze doors of Gniezno Cathedral depict King Boleslaw distributing blessings and assisting at baptisms, while his sword bearer stands beside him ready to strike down those who refuse to convert. The Poles were emerging as a powerful Christian country in their own right.

Adalbertus continued to play a role in Polish-German affairs from beyond the grave. In the year 1000 Otto III made a pilgrimage to his tomb, not only to pay homage to his murdered friend but also to determine what place Poland should have within the Holy Roman Empire. He was so impressed by Boleslaw's extraordinary welcome and the wealth of the Polish court that, according to the chronicler monk Gallus, 'Seeing his glory, his power and his riches the Roman Emperor cried out in admiration: "By the crown of Empire! What I see far exceeds what I have heard!"' He took his own diadem and placed it on Boleslaw's head as a sign of union and friendship, gave him a nail from the Holy Cross and the lance of Saint Maurice, in return for which Boleslaw gave him the arm of Saint Adalbertus. And they felt such love on that day that the Emperor named him brother and associate in the Empire.' To the horror of the German prelates Otto III decided that Poland should not be a mere tributary duchy of the Holy Roman Empire but should be treated as a kingdom alongside Germany, an (almost) equal partner in a federation of Christian kingdoms. During his stay Otto not only spoke of friendship and co-operation between Germany and Poland but even of marriage between Boleslaw's son Mieszko and his own niece Judith.

Had the relationship between the two leaders endured, the long troubled saga that is Polish-German history might have been quite different, but it was not to be. Otto III died in 1002 at the age of twenty-two and was succeeded by Henry II, a man bitterly opposed to the creation of a strong Polish state. In order to strengthen his bargaining position with Germany Boleslaw took advantage of the confusion following Otto's death and seized Meissen and Lausitz. Henry was prepared to accept this but Boleslaw did not stop there and took Bohemia as well. Henry demanded homage, Boleslaw refused, and Henry attacked the Poles. The ensuing war lasted until 1018. Poland's strength was further undermined by a great Slav revolt in 1035-7, which resulted in the move of the Polish capital to Cracow. The Polish-German rivalry now manifested itself in the often bitter fighting along the border from Lusitia to Pomerania, where disputed land changed hands constantly and was often referred to as 'Polish' by the ruler of Poland and 'German' by the emperor and his subjects. This confusion is still reflected in various nineteenth- and twentieth-century Polish and German school atlases which 'claim' the territory as their own. In reality, however, much of the area, including the land around Berlin, was still in the hands of the heathen Slavs and belonged to neither.

By the eleventh century the Slavs were still clinging defiantly to the strip of land around Berlin despite being under constant threat from the Germans, who controlled the Elbe to the west of Spandau and Kopenick, and by the Poles, who now controlled the Oder to the east. It was a fascinating time. Traders continued to travel from German Christian Magdeburg, then cast to the heathen fortresses of Kopenick and Spandau, and then on to Christian Poland. This extraordinary situation lasted for over a century, making the Berlin region one of the last parts of central Europe to become Christianized. But the Slavs were living on borrowed time. The Christians could not tolerate this isolated island of heathenism in their midst; nor could the rulers of Polish and German lands leave such valuable territory unclaimed. The centuries-old domination of the area by the Hevellians and the Sprewans was about to be broken for ever.

In the end the territory fell to the Germans. The drive to take it was spearheaded by Lothair III, the Holy Roman Emperor, who began a campaign against both the Danes and the Slavs in the early twelfth century. One of Lothair's strategies was to send knights to conquer and settle land in his name, and in 1134, in one of the turning points of Berlin's history, he gave the North Mark to a young count of the House of Ascania whose name was Albert the Bear. It was he who would finally wrest the Mark from the pagan Slavs and transform it into part of the German Christian world.

Albert the Bear was typical of the young nobles and knights who set out to make their fortunes in the heathen lands at the edges of Europe. His father, Count Otto of Ballenstedt, already held large properties in the Harz mountains and northern Thuringia and it was normal that the son should go out to earn his fortune in this way; by the time he reached his twenties Albert had already fought in a number of border skirmishes with the Slavs and the ambitious young man was determined to extend his holdings as far as possible, whether by diplomacy or conquest. In order to do this he had to recruit knights.

Knights were integral to the expansion of Europe in the Middle Ages. Many were driven by the desire for land which all knew would translate into dynastic power; if they were successful and survived the gruelling life they could expect property and fiefs, wealth and status. This international brotherhood had first appeared in France but had quickly spread from Cyprus to Hungary, from Italy to East Anglia -- indeed anywhere along the fringes of Europe where there were heathen to fight and glory to be won. Their code of chivalry encompassed everything from the fierce defence of the Church of Christ to strict rules of honour towards women; it was the era of Tannhauser and Parsifal, of troubadours and minnesingers, and it would later become the stuff of Romantic legend. The stories which grew up around these men tended to emphasize their bravery, their mercy and their dedication to God, and many were indeed fired by a genuine determination to save souls -- although it is dear that others were more tempted by the spoils of conquest. Nevertheless they all shared a common ideology so aptly summarized in the medieval Song of Roland: 'Christians are right, pagans are wrong.' The knights were truly international; according to the thirteenth-century account The Chronicle of Morea, Frankish knights settled in Greece, those who fought in Ireland and Wales were granted titles by the king of England, and even in the area around Berlin the Slavic princes, including the duke of Barnim and the Wedel lords of Uchtenhagen, recruited German knights to increase their own dynastic power. Albert the Bear was merely one of many young noblemen trying to attract such men, and he was highly successful.

Albert organized an extraordinary mission against the Slavs which combined a strong force with clever alliances with the Church, particularly with Bishop Anselm of Havelberg and the powerful Archbishop Wichmann

(C) 1998 Alexandra Richie All rights reserved. ISBN: 0-7867-0510-8
User avatar
Darwin
Posts: 2719
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:38 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Contact:

Post by Darwin »

Apologies for going back to the topic of the thread . :)

I just received an e-mail with a link to Via Media Dallas. The description at the top of the page says:

"Via Media Dallas is a group of lay and clergy Episcopalians in the Diocese of Dallas that advocates openness, balanced and accurate information, and clarity of thought about issues facing The Episcopal Church in the USA (ECUSA). The members of Via Media Dallas are united in desiring to remain a part of The Episcopal Church and the life and governance thereof. "

This makes me think that they are probably a bunch of stinking liberals. You can read the various articles there and make your own evaluation.
Mike Wright

"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
 --Goethe
User avatar
Lorenzo
Posts: 5726
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Oregon, USA

Post by Lorenzo »

Jerry Freeman wrote:Here's an interesting passage, found at random, about the history of what is now Berlin:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/r/ri ... polis.html
... the great bronze doors of Gniezno Cathedral depict King Boleslaw distributing blessings and assisting at baptisms, while his sword bearer stands beside him ready to strike down those who refuse to convert.
Jim probably had the same problem I did...the link above only went to a page that asks you to register/subscribe to the NYT before you can proceed. But, if you go through Google here, then scroll down to Faust's Metropolis (3rd one from top - w/nytimes as the address) Google will link you directly to the article. The print is much easier to read this way.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search

From the article:
  • Brandenburg was turned into a centre of evangelizing activity. Christians quickly moved in, rounded up the local Slavs and forced them to convert at swordpoint.
User avatar
Lorenzo
Posts: 5726
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Oregon, USA

Post by Lorenzo »

Darwin wrote:This makes me think that they are probably a bunch of stinking liberals.
:lol:

Good to see you back, Mike! Your posts always amaze me.
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Post by s1m0n »

Jerry Freeman wrote:It's something I've picked up over a long time and a lot of small impressions. If you listen to the dialog of writings from the era of English colonialism, for example, you'll notice references to the superiority of the colonizing people on the grounds that "We are a Christian nation," presumably with a right and even an obligation to bring civilization by force to the savages elsewhere in the world who are less enlightened than we are.
And we're superior because we're a democracy, and so we have the right--even the obligation--to go around bringing democracy by force to the infidels.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
User avatar
Walden
Chiffmaster General
Posts: 11030
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
Contact:

Post by Walden »

s1m0n wrote:And we're superior because we're a democracy, and so we have the right--even the obligation--to go around bringing democracy by force to the infidels.
This is the real problem, or at least a significant part of it. At what point did we decide that our form of government was a one-size-fits-all that needed imposing?
Reasonable person
Walden
User avatar
Jerry Freeman
Posts: 6074
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Now playing in Northeastern Connecticut
Contact:

Post by Jerry Freeman »

I think the two attitudes are related.

The attitude that we are the Chosen of God, and we have a mission from God to go and convert the heathen of the world has infused itself into our sense of who we are as a nation. It's worth noting that those who tend to be the most evangelistically nationalistic also tend to be the ones who are the most evangelistically religious. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Best wishes,
Jerry
User avatar
Walden
Chiffmaster General
Posts: 11030
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
Contact:

Post by Walden »

Jerry Freeman wrote:The attitude that we are the Chosen of God, and we have a mission from God to go and convert the heathen of the world has infused itself into our sense of who we are as a nation. It's worth noting that those who tend to be the most evangelistically nationalistic also tend to be the ones who are the most evangelistically religious. I don't think this is a coincidence.
What isn't a coincidence is that the Republican party has targeted the religious conservatives, especially Protestant religious conservatives, but really they have aimed at religious conservatives in general.
Reasonable person
Walden
User avatar
Lorenzo
Posts: 5726
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Oregon, USA

Post by Lorenzo »

jim stone wrote:--the Church has little choice but to confront
such issues as women clergy and gay marriage,
due to the nature of Christian
theology and God's involvement in
the world.
If you missed Meet The Press this morning read the transcript. There's some very keen discussion on doctrines of the Church and the future.

Sample:
MR. RUSSERT: Father Fessio, the Catholic Church, in fact, could alter its teaching on birth control, the use of condoms or on married priests or on female priests, true?

REV. FESSIO: Well, you put several things on that list, Tim, and the answer is three are false and one is true, and the one that's possibly true is married priests, but not on condoms, not on contraception and not on the ordination of women.

MR. RUSSERT: Why not? Why not?

REV. FESSIO: First of all, I want to say this, that...

MR. RUSSERT: Why are those three not true?

REV. FESSIO: You know, Tim, I'd love to--you want to give me an hour to explain that, or maybe two hours?

MR. RUSSERT: Well is it...

REV. FESSIO: I mean, this is--we are--we have a difficulty here. First of all I want to encourage all the listener-watcher-viewers here, for every hour you spend watching television, please spend five hours reading good books, because we really can't have a serious discussion on these very deep, deep, mysterious issues with a bunch of sound bites. So all I'm saying is...

MR. RUSSERT: Well, I think devoting--Father, with all respect, I think devoting a full hour to this discussion is a very serious attempt. And my question was, why would those three issues--the use of condoms, birth control and women as priests--why could they not be altered? Have they, in fact, become doctrine to the church or have they been taught infallibly by a pope? see transcript here
jim stone
Posts: 17193
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by jim stone »

s1m0n wrote:
Jerry Freeman wrote:It's something I've picked up over a long time and a lot of small impressions. If you listen to the dialog of writings from the era of English colonialism, for example, you'll notice references to the superiority of the colonizing people on the grounds that "We are a Christian nation," presumably with a right and even an obligation to bring civilization by force to the savages elsewhere in the world who are less enlightened than we are.
And we're superior because we're a democracy, and so we have the right--even the obligation--to go around bringing democracy by force to the infidels.
The way I see it is this: certainly there was a sense of superiority
at least partly on the ground that the colonizers were Christians.
And I do think there may have been a sense of duty
to 'less enlightened' people, who, I'm willing to think,
often actually were less enlightened--awful treatment of
women and so on. (Of course most religious beliefs
tend to involve a sense of superiority, Christians
having no monopoly on egotism.)

But I don't think colonialism happened for these reasons;
it happened for economic reasons and would have happened
if the colonizers believed in the Great Pumpkin or nothing at all.
History is full of invasions and wars and annexations,
the strong eat the weak--the history of the East India
Company in India shows little evidence that Christianity
had much to do with it!

Where Christianity did seem to make a difference
in India was in the treatment of the colonized, for
whom the colonizers felt, along with their economic
motives, a sense of responsibility that probably
did flow from their Christianity, espeically after
the Crown took over. The creation of roads,
a civil service, an army, hospitals, measures taken
to emancipate women from awful things.
Again, the opposition of Christians to the slave trade that
went on for hundreds of years, and finally seems
to have been the pricnipal cause of its destruction.
Not to say that bad things were never done to the
colonized in the name of Christianity, still the Great Pumpkin might not have cared so much for these good things. In all of my
travels, wherever I went, there were Christian organizations,
schools, hospitals helping the poor, in many places they
were the only institutions there for the poor, no to mention
the only ones that worked. I don't think this all
first happened when I got there.

I don't think anybody thinks that we have a duty to bring democracy
by force to the infidels, or if anybody does they are pretty
atypical. I do think democracy is a very good thing,
certainly considering the alternatives, and that the USA
should do a good deal to encourage it and press
authoritarian regimes to democratize. I have no
objection to using economic leverage, e.g. reductions
in aid. I do think we
have that responsibilty, but not because the people
are infidels. So we are pressing Egypt to have open elections,
not because the Egyptians are infidels but because
they want democracy and the authoritarian regime won't
give it to them. It seems to me a fundamental
human right for people to have a say in political decisions
that affect them--maybe there are extraoridnary circumstances
where this cannot be the case, but I disbeleive they
exist in the middle east. If Christians are for our efforts
at democratization, our use of our diplomatic and economic
power in this way, so much the better. But I'm not
aware of Christians who argue that we should invade
countries to democratize them; to the contrary,
the most powerful religious Western voice against the
invasion of Iraq came from the Catholic church.

Turning from Colonization to Forced Conversions:
I read with interest the history of forced conversions
in Brandenburg in the 10th century AD. There seem to be two points.
First this is happening at the end of the Dark Ages,
and so perhaps one wants to count the state of the
world at that time. Second, as the history says,
religious zeal wasn't the only factor--the converters
were under constant attack from invaders from
the east and in mortal danger; apparently forcing people to convert
in these areas was part of an effort to create a defensive
perimeter. Those who wish to indict Christianity or Catholicsm
on the basis of these events may do so. No one can
deny that some very bad things have been done
in the name of Christianity.
User avatar
Darwin
Posts: 2719
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:38 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Contact:

Post by Darwin »

I would suggest watching The 700 Club and CBN News daily for about six months to get a feel for the attitudes of at least a few of the more "conservative" evangelicals.
Mike Wright

"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
 --Goethe
Post Reply