playing well with others

davidc · Post by **davidc** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:49 pm

Hi! I've just discovered Chiff & Fipple, and am hoping for some advice. I've been tootling for about 10 years, and last year a friend asked me to sit in with his band for their St. Patrick's Day gigs. He said he liked my "wild, raw sound", which I thought was a very kind way of putting it. The fiddler wasn't so pleased. He kept asking me to play quieter. I explained that quieter meant flatter or an octave lower. He suggested that I could stuff foreign objects in my whistle's bore. I thought of making a counter-suggestion, and thought better of it. It seemed to me from this limited experience that because my whistle is so shrill, it can be very hard to blend in with the other instruments in a small room, whereas in larger rooms people were saying the sound was getting lost. Can anybody give me more thoughts on this?
Question 2: Because the band was wanting my melodies to stay mostly in my 2nd octave, I was forced up into my 3rd octive more than I have been used to. I found some alternative fingerings that are fairly stable, but I have since noticed that my cat has developed some nervous disorders. Is this normal? Are there orniments or note substitutions that people can recommend to take the edge off? Or should I just say, "Damn the small animals, full speed ahead!"? What is the ethical position of Chiff & Fipple on this?

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:58 pm

Well, David, only a Kerryman plays in the third octave, and then only outdoors.

Seriously, though, what make and key of whistle are you playing? Perhaps some folks here could suggest a quieter one, or a louder one that you could play an octave lower and still be heard.

As far a cruelty to pets goes, I primarily play the fife, so obviously I have no sympathy for the ears of children, spouses, or neighbors, let alone small domestic animals.

Jim

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:02 pm

Third octave whistle? Ouch! No wonder the fiddle player was ready to melt your whistle down for recycling.
Honestly, I'm a whistle and flute player myself and I play in sessions regularly. If someone came into the session and started playing a whistle in the third octave I'd tell them exactly what to do with it.
The goal in a session is to blend in - for all the instruments to meld together, not to stand out.
Chris

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:07 pm

I know exactly what you mean.

That is why I have several whistles I play in session, all the way from the Clarke (soft as falling leaves) to the Cronnolly that's about twice as loud as a Susato.

As for the third octave stuff, I'd recommend dropping to first and second octave, but use a louder whistle. That oughta fix 'em.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:11 pm

I'm curious as to why the band wanted your melodies to stay in the second octave? Unless you're going to be dipping down below low D (and even then you can generally fudge by jumping UP to the target note instead of going down) or need more volume, I can't think of a musical reason for them to want you to play so high all the time. Is it the key they're playing in that's the problem? If so, perhaps a whistle in a key other than D will help matters.

It is also entirely possible that your particular whistle just has too shrill and harsh a sound to blend with the other instruments (which is why others have already asked what you're playing).

If the fiddler was the only one complaining, it's also possible that it's just "his problem." Seriously...some people just don't like the sound of the whistle (he may also be a wee bit jealous if he's been the primary melody instrument until now).

Redwolf

P.S. My cat tolerates my whistling, and will even purr in my lap while I play, until I get up to second-octave B. That will send him running from the room, and I imagine anything higher than that would have him cowering under the bed. In fact, my latest threat when he's clawing the sofa is "Jonah, Is mommy going to have to play 'Danny Boy'?"

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-01-29 17:17 ]

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:21 pm

The sad fact seems to be that a little bit of whistle goes a long way.

I'm primarily a flute player, so I can trade off to a lower, quieter instrument. I've been in open bands (not quite like a session--a bit more organized) where the whistle player wouldn't shut up, even when he clearly had the wrong key whistle for the job.

I think of whistles as icing on the cake--delightful when done well. And not too many folks want a whole cake made of just icing.

M

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:28 pm

Flute is lower? Yes.

Flute is quieter? Not in my experience. Even on my antique German 8-key, I have to really hold back to balance a Susato D whistle.

I think flute may sometimes sound quieter because it is a lower pitch and a more resonant instrument. A whistle's high pitch, not its volume, is usually what lets it cut through and be heard--rather or not that's a good thing I think depends mainly on the whistler.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

hank123 · Post by **hank123** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:51 pm

I have a buddy who I get together with and try to get some reels going with him on guitar. He's a good player, but seems to have made some strange connection between good and loud. I play along with my Clarke until he starts to figure a piece out, because as soon as he figures it out he really likes to belt it out and literally drive all the women out of the room. Then I simply get out my Susato Soprano D and relax. Blowing as hard as I can for volume on my Clarke is nowhere near the decibels I can get on my Susato without even trying. Even first octave. UNfortunately the whistling also seems to have some effect on chasing girlfriends and wives outta the room. But I swear it's just because the guitarist plays so loud. Any tips on how to get other members of the group to play more quietly?

davidc · Post by **davidc** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:51 pm

This is fantastic getting all this feedback! Thank you everybody! To fill in the story, my friend who asked me to sit in is lead vocal and guitarist. He was wanting a sort of a high continuo sound behind the choruses, like you hear on some old Clancy Brothers recordings. I was playing my Generation whistles because he wanted the brassier sound, though I love my Clarkes, and in hindsite might have chosen them. I know that I fell into the middle of an artistic difference of opinion between him and the fiddler. That can't be helped. What I am looking for is ways I can play better. What I am taking away from all this wonderful input is that 3rd octave should only be used in self defence against a weapon of equal or greater force, and that any problem should be viewed as an opportunity to buy a new whistle. Is that pretty much the Chiff & Fipple concensus?
Thanks! David

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:06 pm

Any excuse to buy a new whistle is a good excuse!

Seriously, you might want to try an Oak. It's got projection and a lovely clear tone without being shrill. It takes good breath control but if you're used to Clarke originals you should already be pretty good at that.

Of course, the Clare 2-piece is a great whistle...then there's the Acorn...the Dixon is about the most bang for the buck...etc...etc...drool...drool...

Best wishes and buy lots of whistles!

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

[ This Message was edited by: peeplj on 2003-01-30 00:06 ]

AaronS · Post by **AaronS** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:28 am

Does the Fiddler play Bodhran as well?

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:47 am

I would avoid the third octave: just play in the 2nd octave and make octave jumps or slight variations to avoid the third. Generally I consider any note above high B as an act of aggression.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:17 am

On 2003-01-29 21:28, peeplj wrote:
Flute is lower? Yes.

Flute is quieter? Not in my experience. Even on my antique German 8-key, I have to really hold back to balance a Susato D whistle.

I think flute may sometimes sound quieter because it is a lower pitch and a more resonant instrument. A whistle's high pitch, not its volume, is usually what lets it cut through and be heard--rather or not that's a good thing I think depends mainly on the whistler.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

I think we're both right...I'm on a wood Boehm and its bottom octave is where the warmest, woodiest, and yes, quietist, sound is. As you already know, that's an octave lower than the whistle can go. If I want to be heard along with the fiddles (can't get away from them), I generally go up an octave.

M

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:32 am

davidc - you're right with your assessment. You need to quickly:

1) Buy a new whistle.
2) Offer to meet the fiddler in a dark alley late at night.
3) Demonstrate not only the 3rd ocative but your recent attempts to achieve a 4th octave right into the fiddler's ear - that should solve his little problem...

Seriously though, Oak or Susato can be good choices for increased volume in the lower octaves. I also consider anything above high B an act of aggression, and even then high B seems to set my wife off if I play it more than 2 times per day...

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:39 am

I really think this "tell the fiddler where to stick it" attitude is all wrong and is what gives whistle players a bad reputation in sessions.

The honest truth is that whistle players already have the reputation of generally being beginners, not knowing what they're doing, and playing shrill instruments that are out of tune with themselves, out of tune with the rest of the instruments and an octave higher than everything else. It is my experience that, unless the whistle player in question is Kathleen Coneely, Gavin Whelan, Mary Bergin or Mike McHale (etc), the general response of the session is to sort of grimace when a whistle player walks into a session (that includes myself... or when I take out the whistle instead of the flute). Does that mean the whistle is a bad instrument for sessions - no, absolutely not.... it just means one has to play it with sensitivity to the rest of the session.

It is really up to us, as whistle players, to try and change that reputation through careful blending, study of good technique and tunes, and taking the instrument and music just as seriously as a fiddle or pipes player would.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2003-01-30 09:43 ]