Third octave notes

[sheehan]

I have a question about the third octave notes on a whistle. In theory, how many of them should be available. It seems to me that the first bottom note in the 3rd octave is usually playable. The 2nd from the bottom is always the troublesome one. The 3rd from the bottom may be playable too. I have tried a number of whistles from highs to lows. Any expert on this?

[benhall.1]

Taking a D whistle as the standard here, I can get up to G in the third octave pretty easily on most whistles. I can get A at a push. However, the only two 'third octave' notes that I use in practice are top D and the E a tone above it. The notes above that, even if they're clear, are too loud and too piercing to be of much practical use, IMO.

[Feadoggie]

I have a question about the third octave notes on a whistle. In theory, how many of them should be available.

In theory, here's what's available.



In practice, my experience, much like benhall.1, is that you don't run into notes above the third D much at all. But that probably depends on the repertoire you play. If you are going to go there, wear earplugs.

Feadoggie

[brewerpaul]

I use that third D pretty regularly, but nothing beyond that even though I am able to sound those "notes" on several different whistles.

[sheehan]

Thanks a lot. I just wonder if that has anything to do with how the whistle is made. I have made several alto and low whistles, all of which can reach the bottom note in the 3rd octave. I understand that this is pretty much enough for actual playing, but I am curious to know how the higher notes are affected from a design point of view. For example, the second one from the bottom in the 3rd octave usually has a cut-off frequency ratio less than 3 in my design (it is very hard to increase that to more than 3). Is this the reason why that note is not available or hard to play in particular (probably impossible if the ratio is less than 3.)? I am an amateur maker so any experienced/professional comment is welcome. Thanks.

[benhall.1]

What fingerings are you using for the third octave notes, sheehan? The chart above is pretty good (although, funnily enough, it doesn't give the one which works best, for me, for third octave G, which is XOX OOX. Anyway, for that third octave E, I use
XXO XXO. If I try XXX XXO it produces a note which is severely flat. I mean, like, about a quarter tone flat.

Oh, and I know that everyone, including yourself, has said this already, but I do think that it cannot be stressed enough that ladies and gentlemen never actually use third octave notes above D (or E at the outside) on a whistle when in company.

[sheehan]

I used the same fingering as indicated in the chart above. For example, D: oxxxxx; E: xxxxxo and F#: xxxxoo; I tried yours. I really don't know if it works because the notes are not stable, it easily goes up or down in the overtone scale. More importantly, as you have stressed, I may commit suicide if I test it too long.

I am just curious from a fairly acoustic science point of view.

What fingerings are you using for the third octave notes, sheehan? The chart above is pretty good (although, funnily enough, it doesn't give the one which works best, for me, for third octave G, which is XOX OOX. Anyway, for that third octave E, I use
XXO XXO. If I try XXX XXO it produces a note which is severely flat. I mean, like, about a quarter tone flat.

Oh, and I know that everyone, including yourself, has said this already, but I do think that it cannot be stressed enough that ladies and gentlemen never actually use third octave notes above D (or E at the outside) on a whistle when in company.

[benhall.1]

I used the same fingering as indicated in the chart above. For example, D: oxxxxx; E: xxxxxo and F#: xxxxoo; I tried yours. I really don't know if it works because the notes are not stable, it easily goes up or down in the overtone scale. More importantly, as you have stressed, I may commit suicide if I test it too long.

I am just curious from a fairly acoustic science point of view.

You'll see that there are one or two alternative fingerings for third octave given in that chart. For third octave E, I've never known a whistle that doesn't give a seriously flat note with the fingering XXX XXO. You're not really giving the thing a fair test if you just use that fingering, IMO.

[R Small]

On all of my whistles third octave E plays best with XXOXXO. This is a good useable note. Above that and it's just too high and loud.

[ecohawk]

Don't know that I'm adding anything that hasn't already been said but my better instruments will get to a solid third E and that's as far as I've ever needed to go. I have an Abell, a Sindt and a Busman that will get to the third G but to me it's not a useful note. YMMV.

ecohawk

[Feadoggie]

Thanks a lot. I just wonder if that has anything to do with how the whistle is made. I have made several alto and low whistles, all of which can reach the bottom note in the 3rd octave. I understand that this is pretty much enough for actual playing, but I am curious to know how the higher notes are affected from a design point of view. For example, the second one from the bottom in the 3rd octave usually has a cut-off frequency ratio less than 3 in my design (it is very hard to increase that to more than 3). Is this the reason why that note is not available or hard to play in particular (probably impossible if the ratio is less than 3.)? I am an amateur maker so any experienced/professional comment is welcome. Thanks.

There are several design aspects which will effect the ability to hit the third octave notes. The bore/length ratio has an effect. Narrower bores will support higher notes easier. The voicing matters(geometry of the head components). You can adjust the voicing so that the higher notes are easier to reach. Hole sizing matters. Bigger (and smoother) holes benefit the easier turnover of the higher notes (you seem to already be paying attention to cut-off frequency - cool).

All this comes at a price though. Making a whistle is a balancing act between the upper register and the lower register. Paying attention to the third octave will not usually benefit the first octave. So most makers will pay attention to the notes that matter in the real world by creating a whistle that gives a nice strong low D (talking D whistles here) and good access to the high B. The C and D above that should take care of themselves if you get that right. How you go about it is a matter of taste and experience in both playing and making whistles.

Have fun. Don't forget to play.

Feadoggie

[sheehan]

@Feadoggie, thanks very much for the information all of which is useful. I have another question if you don't mind me answering. The question is not directly related to the 3rd octave issue. The window side of the fipple plug is usually clear-cut (vertically flat). However, I know that some designs use a slope shaped fipple plug at the window side if you know what I mean. This design is supposed to improve the sound. Can you shed some light on that? In what way the improvement comes and why? Thanks.

[Feadoggie]

The window side of the fipple plug is usually clear-cut (vertically flat). However, I know that some designs use a slope shaped fipple plug at the window side if you know what I mean. This design is supposed to improve the sound. Can you shed some light on that? In what way the improvement comes and why? Thanks.

Let's see if I get what you are asking right? I think this was actually answered in one of the other threads that you started recently. It's all about getting the air stream directed at the blade so that the oscillations that create the whistle's tone are strong. Hans and I both mentioned that you should take care to have smooth edges on all the surfaces of the windway and window. You do not want to cause any extraneous disturbances in the air flow, just at the window from the air stream hitting the blade.

If you cut a plug or fipple (the fipple is the plug) you will have a hard edge at the exit of the windway. You can examine that edge with a magnifying glass or microscope to verify this. That can cause eddies in the air current which will not be good. So, many makers would chamfer, bevel, radius or otherwise ease the edge of the plug so that the air flows smoothly off the plug and actually draws some air down a bit below the blade (so you might not have to undercut the blade).

Some other makers would shape the plug as a ramp so that the opening at the beak's end would be larger than at the window end. This is supposed to act as a bit of a compressor and accelerate the air at the exit of the windway but still directed at the labium's edge.

Still others would have the width of the windway wider at the beak than at the window to cause the same effect as above.

Other makers would create a concave surface in the face of the plug. Commercial molded whistles frequently have an open space under the windway exit. I won't go into just why that's done but suffice it to say that a flat plug face is not always employed.

As I said earlier, how you go about things is a matter of preferences and taste to a large degree. If you know what sound and playing characteristics you are going for you then you adjust the variables until you find what results in the whistle you desire. If you don't know what you are looking for then it's truly all academic. But experimentation is part of the fun of making whistles. In the end, the whistle you make should be judged by yourself for its overall performance. Many variables go into that result. Whistle design is a matter of puts and takes. It's all about finding a good balance that works for you. So do what works for you. And remember the sound (tone and timbre) of a whistle is subjective.

Feadoggie

[sheehan]

Thanks very much. I should have made myself clearer. I was talking about the third method you described, i.e. the concave surface of the plug at the window side under the windway. Sometimes, that surface is not concave but a flat big slope. So, I take that as another method of improving the air flow out of the windway before it reaches the labium edge.

The window side of the fipple plug is usually clear-cut (vertically flat). However, I know that some designs use a slope shaped fipple plug at the window side if you know what I mean. This design is supposed to improve the sound. Can you shed some light on that? In what way the improvement comes and why? Thanks.

Let's see if I get what you are asking right? I think this was actually answered in one of the other threads that you started recently. It's all about getting the air stream directed at the blade so that the oscillations that create the whistle's tone are strong. Hans and I both mentioned that you should take care to have smooth edges on all the surfaces of the windway and window. You do not want to cause any extraneous disturbances in the air flow, just at the window from the air stream hitting the blade.

If you cut a plug or fipple (the fipple is the plug) you will have a hard edge at the exit of the windway. You can examine that edge with a magnifying glass or microscope to verify this. That can cause eddies in the air current which will not be good. So, many makers would chamfer, bevel, radius or otherwise ease the edge of the plug so that the air flows smoothly off the plug and actually draws some air down a bit below the blade (so you might not have to undercut the blade).

Some other makers would shape the plug as a ramp so that the opening at the beak's end would be larger than at the window end. This is supposed to act as a bit of a compressor and accelerate the air at the exit of the windway but still directed at the labium's edge.

Still others would have the width of the windway wider at the beak than at the window to cause the same effect as above.

Other makers would create a concave surface in the face of the plug. Commercial molded whistles frequently have an open space under the windway exit. I won't go into just why that's done but suffice it to say that a flat plug face is not always employed.

As I said earlier, how you go about things is a matter of preferences and taste to a large degree. If you know what sound and playing characteristics you are going for you then you adjust the variables until you find what results in the whistle you desire. If you don't know what you are looking for then it's truly all academic. But experimentation is part of the fun of making whistles. In the end, the whistle you make should be judged by yourself for its overall performance. Many variables go into that result. Whistle design is a matter of puts and takes. It's all about finding a good balance that works for you. So do what works for you. And remember the sound (tone and timbre) of a whistle is subjective.

Feadoggie

[cavefish]

on a high D whistle i have not used it much beyond the 3rd D , its too high/not pleasant --i use it on the sullane jig- but the Low D i have done higher (whale sounds) not as a usefull note, but as an ornament for a slow section in a song, or a trailing haunting sound within a song