In Search of the Optimum Bore

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hans
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In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by hans »

Warning: the following is rather technical!

Can there be such a thing as an optimal bore size for a whistle, relative to its key? Tastes for certain tonal characteristics vary, some prefer narrower, some wider whistles for various situations.

I used to think that wide and narrow bore can be expressed by the length to bore ratio, but not any more. Now for me "wide" and "narrow" is just relative to what I use as "standard". Obviously that is subjective, and also depends on suitable tubing I found.

But underneath is a more fundamental problem about scaling into different keys. To build whistles with similar tonal characteristic in different keys larger whistles in lower keys need to be a bit narrower than simple proportional scaling would suggest. In other word: the length/bore ratio is becoming larger with larger whistles.

This is well known to organ builders. Some have used a scaling method called "Normalmensur" for hundreds of years, in which the 17th pipe in a chromatic scale has half the width of the first pipe (called 16th halving ratio) (see for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_flue_pipe_scaling).

I studied this a bit and found that from my experience experimenting with a variety of tubing for various whistle keys the 16th halving ratio was a lot better than a 12th halving ratio (octave pipe has half the width), but not quite optimal. I think a 15th halving ratio is better. I draw consolation from the fact that many organ builders did not adhere to a 16th halving scheme, and many organs are build with narrower ratios.

Further, if you have a look at this paper about the Q value of a pipe resonator by Johan Liljencrants (warning: this goes into physics): A Q value is an expression of the "quality" of an oscillation, and basically the reverse of the sum of the losses occurring in an oscillation. The basic losses in an acoustic pipe resonator are wall loss and radiation loss. There is a nice graph at Fig 3 illustrating the estimated Q value (calculated as a combination of the estimated losses) in relationship to frequency and pipe width (of square pipes), which I will show here.
Image
The black curved lines combine points of equal Q, like isobars on a weather chart. Values decrease towards the upper left corner due to growing radiation losses (power losses resulting from the open ends of the pipe), which grow with growing frequencies and wider pipes. Values decrease towards the lower left corner due to growing wall losses (power losses resulting from friction at the boundary at the pipe walls), which grow with lower frequencies and narrower pipes. From top left to bottom right we could trace a line which combines the highest possible Q values for each frequency, thereby relating each frequency to an optimal pipe width. It would be optimal inasmuch as it implies the least amount of losses, which results in a pipe (or whistle) which is optimally powered.
The slope of the red line in fig 3 shows how width varies with frequency in a pipe rank with halving number M=16. The vertical position of this line is put similar to the Töpfer Normalmensur with W =137 mm at 8'C (65 Hz), same area as for diameter 155 mm. One may speculate whether pipe makers of the past have lead the evolution of pipe scaling toward maximum Q.
I thought that very interesting. The red line marked M=16 corresponds to a pipe scaling halving the width every 16th semitone (the classical Normalmensur of organ builders). You can see it is not quite near the line of highest Q. Such a line would need to be a little bit lower and of different angle, meaning a different ratio. I found that a line corresponding to a halving of width every 15 semitones (M=15) would meet that much better and is very near a line of highest Q.

Looking at the actual width values in relation to frequencies using such a high Q line, I get ca 20mm pipe width for C5. But my "standard" C whistle uses a 14mm bore. But then whistles are not organ pipes, and operate over two octaves. So the lowest note is not the optimum (acoustically), the optimum is found up the whistle scale, around the fourth or fifth note. For these notes the actual pipe length is a lot shorter. So taking two thirds of the width values on Fig 3 we get some meaningful values for optimal whistle width in relation to frequencies.

Some maths: for whistle width scaling a 15th halving ratio is pretty close to optimal. For each half tone step that means a ratio of 15th root of 2, or ~1.04729, or a ratio between octaves of ~1.7411. The graph suggests an optimal ratio of about 1.77 between octaves, translating to a half tone step ratio of 1.04873. The difference is not very big, and both would give good results for practical width scaling.

A practical example:
I take a high C whistle with 14mm bore as optimal, length/bore=21.3.
Using an octave ratio of 1.77 I calculate for a low G whistle the optimal bore to 17.8mm. In practise I use 18mm bore with very good result, length/bore=22.4.
A 20mm bore gives me a good wide bore low G whistle, length/bore=20.
Note the rise in length/bore from 21.3 to 22.4, even though both whistles are similar in their tonal character.

Clearly the length to bore ratio of a particular whistle does not express if this whistle is wide or narrow in bore. We need to take account of the key a well. Lower whistles are relatively narrower, and progressively narrower the lower they are, to exhibit similar tonal character.
Last edited by hans on Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by DrPhill »

An interesting read, and a good introduction to the idea that length-to-bore ratio is not constant across whistle keys. Thank you for sharing it with us.

If I had to criticise it would be that the diagram seems 'magicked' out of thin air, and is not explained, but it is then used to support your theory than M=15 is better than M=16. I am not sure that you can rely on your audience reading the cited work, so if you wanted maximum clarity perhaps you could add an explanation of the diagram, and explicitly state that m=15 is shorthand for a 'fifteenth halving scheme'.

(Sorry, I have done some time as a technical reviewer/critic).
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by hans »

Thanks Phill! I have revised and added a paragraph and more detail on this now.

Here is a scaling table, calculated with a semitone width ratio of 1.77^(1/12), and a base of 14mm for high C:

Code: Select all

Whistle bore scaling with octave ratio = 1.77
and high C bore = 14mm
key     bore (mm)
G#       9.57
G       10.03
F#      10.52
F       11.04
E       11.57
Eb      12.14
D       12.73
C#      13.35
C       14
B       14.68
Bb      15.4
A       16.15
Low G#  16.94
Low G   17.76
Low F#  18.63
Low F   19.53
Low E   20.49
Low Eb  21.48
Low D   22.53
Low C#  23.63
Low C   24.78
Low B   25.99
Low Bb  27.25
Low A   28.58
Bass G# 29.97
Bass G  31.44
[/size]
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by Peter Duggan »

hans wrote:But underneath is a more fundamental problem about scaling into different keys. To build whistles with similar tonal characteristic in different keys larger whistles in lower keys need to be a bit narrower than simple proportional scaling would suggest. In other word: the length/bore ratio is becoming larger with larger whistles.

This is well known to organ builders. Some have used a scaling method called "Normalmensur" for hundreds of years, in which the 17th pipe in a chromatic scale has half the width of the first pipe (called 16th halving ratio) (see for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_flue_pipe_scaling).
Clearly the length to bore ratio of a particular whistle does not express if this whistle is wide or narrow in bore. We need to take account of the key a well. Lower whistles are relatively narrower, and progressively narrower the lower they are, to exhibit similar tonal character.
Seems this principle is essentially the same as that outlined by Anthony Baines in discussing bass oboes and heckelphones (yes, both conical reed instruments) in Woodwind Instruments and their History, where he describes the normally upscaled bass oboe as doubling the bore's cross-sectional area and the more radical heckelphone as doubling the bore itself.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by david_h »

I think the stuff about Q gives a good background for this from hans, ending with the main thing I get from his description.
hans wrote: <snip> I studied this a bit and found that from my experience experimenting with a variety of tubing for various whistle keys the 16th halving ratio was a lot better than a 12th halving ratio (octave pipe has half the width), but not quite optimal. I think a 15th halving ratio is better...
<snip>
Clearly the length to bore ratio of a particular whistle does not express if this whistle is wide or narrow in bore. We need to take account of the key a well. Lower whistles are relatively narrower, and progressively narrower the lower they are, to exhibit similar tonal character.
I did look at the article, following the gist rather than all the physics. This bit sparked my imagination (my italics)
Corollary measurements were made on a few cylindrical tubes and household items, dimensions given in tab 1.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by henryz »

Interesting stuff, and entirely consistent with some limited experience, here. Commonly available (in US hardware stores, at least) 3/4" OD aluminum tubing makes a great sounding alto A. Nominal ID (based on 0.048" wall) is 0.654" or 16.6 mm. Measured ID's range from 0.625" (15.88 mm) on the low side to 0.655" (16.64 mm) on the high side. Their average (16.26 mm) is quite close to the value called out in Hans' table (16.15 mm). I'd be curious how other folks' experiences either validate or refute this "scaling for maximum Q" idea.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by Daniel_Bingamon »

About 10 years ago I had published on my website a wavelength/bore ratio calculator because of the variables that influence the physical length (like mouthpiece design - window geometry (like depth, length, width/interference, bore reduction at the exit, etc).
Nevertheless, it makes too much complications to educate the average player with.

You could take what you call "ideal" bore diameters and create a percentage in one direction that is called "wide bore" and in the other direction "narrow bore". Publish this chart and maybe the makers will use this. Another method would be average bore deviation percent. Example, Zero being nominal, a negative figure going narrow and positive figure going wide. It might need to be biased with against whistle industry norms though.

Also, whistles unlike organ pipes do have to make a compromise, they play additional notes. So the nominal design parameters may not necessarily be centered around the bell note of the instrument - maybe the center of the scale or the major 3rd up from the bell may be more practical.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by Kypfer »

Also, whistles unlike organ pipes do have to make a compromise, they play additional notes. So the nominal design parameters may not necessarily be centered around the bell note of the instrument - maybe the center of the scale or the major 3rd up from the bell may be more practical.
Well said, sir. I was trying to phrase something similar, but couldn't get it to "read right".
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by hans »

Daniel_Bingamon wrote:Also, whistles unlike organ pipes do have to make a compromise, they play additional notes. So the nominal design parameters may not necessarily be centered around the bell note of the instrument - maybe the center of the scale or the major 3rd up from the bell may be more practical.

Yes. But I said it in the OP in this way (adding emphasis now):
Looking at the actual width values in relation to frequencies using such a high Q line, I get ca 20mm pipe width for C5. But my "standard" C whistle uses a 14mm bore. But then whistles are not organ pipes, and operate over two octaves. So the lowest note is not the optimum (acoustically), the optimum is found up the whistle scale, around the fourth or fifth note. For these notes the actual pipe length is a lot shorter. So taking two thirds of the width values on Fig 3 we get some meaningful values for optimal whistle width in relation to frequencies.
This is similar in the approach of organ pipe design, where the width of pipes for different voices are described as a deviation factor from the "Normalmensur", as a deviation by a certain number of half tone steps on the scaling table.

Constructing the optimal bore table I used an octave scaling factor based on theoretical maximum Q values, and using a bore of 14mm for a high C whistle as a base, as that seemed to fit best with my experience. That takes care of adjusting the theoretical results as expressed in the graph above to whistles.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by AvienMael »

Hans, I understand what you are trying to do, but one problem with trying to "perfect" the whistle is that in doing so, something is inevitably lost... just something to maybe keep in mind...

That aside, I think (and I have said this before) that bore size isn't everything. Material and wall thickness each have such an impact of their own on a whistle's tuning and timbre, that bore size alone cannot and will not necessarily determine "optimal" pitch across any scale. I think also, that regardless of how "close" one comes to "optimal bore size" (based on physics, for example), without "optimal" voicing of the whistle head to match the wall and bore in each key, this all becomes a lot of work for nothing - and until you achieve "optimal voicing" in the head to suit a particular bore, wall thickness, etc., how do you know if you are on the right track or not? A very tricky business indeed...

I think it's possible that research into pipe organs could be somewhat misleading for your purposes, because modern pipe organs use a constant regulated supply pressure in conjunction with an orifice at each flue to regulate volume (of air, not sound) - very unlike the airstream one delivers into a whistle, in which both volume and pressure are regulated by the player - and every player is different. I'm not saying that there is nothing practical to be gleaned from delving into the theories and practices utilized in pipe organ making - obviously there is... voicing, for example...
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by hans »

Yes, you are right of course. But for me this is not about trying to find the perfect whistle design. I know there is not such a thing. And I am well aware that whistle making is a craft and art which goes well beyond following design ideas.

I am trying to investigate scaling of tube width in this topic, nothing more. I said nothing about bore size determining pitch. Tuning is a totally different issue. - Maybe talking of "optimal bore" is offensive, because it could be taken to mean that there is a "best" bore size. But I do not mean that, I am fully aware that one may prefer a narrower bore or wider bore for various situations, and that this is a matter of subjective choice. I wrote that right at the start. Yes, and bore is only one factor among many which gives a whistle its unique voice. I should add that I do not agree with you that there is an "optimal voicing", but this is not the topic to discuss voicing.

Regards the difference of constant pressure for pipe organs and variable pressure for whistle playing: this has no bearing on the tonal differences of wider or narrower tubes. It has a lot to do with voicing, yes. The Q value of a tube is determined in practise passively through a speaker and without an air jet driving the resonance oscillation. So no, it is not misleading to look at pipe organs and how organ pipe widths are scaled, or to look at research about Q in acoustic resonators and try to use knowledge gained to make choices about whistle bores.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by Denny »

AvienMael wrote:Hans, I understand what you are trying to do, but one problem with trying to "perfect" the whistle is that in doing so, something is inevitably lost... just something to maybe keep in mind...
my mind is alway inevitably lost :really:
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by AvienMael »

hans wrote: Regards the difference of constant pressure for pipe organs and variable pressure for whistle playing: this has no bearing on the tonal differences of wider or narrower tubes. It has a lot to do with voicing, yes. The Q value of a tube is determined in practise passively through a speaker and without an air jet driving the resonance oscillation. So no, it is not misleading to look at pipe organs and how organ pipe widths are scaled, or to look at research about Q in acoustic resonators and try to use knowledge gained to make choices about whistle bores.
But I think the point I am failing to make here, is that in a pipe organ, the tube is more or less "engineered" for each note. Once built, everything is constant and performs consistently. Volume of air will certainly have an impact on the tone produced - in a whistle or in an organ tube. There are no such constants in a whistle - everything is variable by design. What works for a pipe organ in terms of tube diameter to produce optimal pitch will not necessarily work for a whistle. This raises the issue that unless the head is voiced to precisely match the bore (and everything else), an "optimal bore" is not likely going to perform as intended or expected. I think in whistle making, what has been demonstrated throughout time, is that it is possible to optimize many different bore diameters to a particular key, and the results are dependent upon on one's skill at doing so. I have to wonder also, that the fact that a whistle tube is drilled with tone holes, which in turn are covered or remain uncovered - the fact that the whistle is held (and held differently by different players) - doesn't this also create another variable that the chart does not take into account? Resonance, for example, would certainly be impacted, I think.

In scaling the tube width, are you trying to find what is optimal for the bell note - as would be the case for a pipe organ - or optimal width as it would pertain across the octave scale of a particular key? As Daniel points out, there has to be a trade-off in a whistle - as you well know. Tonal differences between tubing of differing diameters obviously exist, but they can also be overcome by changing the voicing of the head. That is, a narrow bore whistle and a wide bore whistle can be made to sound more or less the same simply (okay, well, not so simply, but..) by voicing them to match each other.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by Tunborough »

I'd like to make a distinction between the "optimal" bore for a single whistle, and the scaling factor for a "family" of whistles so they all have a similar sound (a "consort" of whistles, if you will).

For the optimal bore, we can't look to organ pipes, because different organ ranks will have different bore:length ratios. String pipes are generally narrow, flute pipes are wider. For a given whistle, you probably want to be close to the maximum Q, but you then choose to be one side or the other, depending on what kind of sound you want.

For the scaling factor, organ building is a useful guide. Fletcher and Rossing note that doubling on somewhere between the 15th and 18th pipe is generally satisfactory, and modern design generally uses doubling on the 15th, consistent with what Hans' prefers. They also calculate the optimum scaling factor for a set of pipes that have the same relative Q values among the different harmonics, so they all have the same timbre: this works out to doubling every 14.4 pipes. "This should give tonal similarity across the whole rank, though the basses may be rather loud compared to the trebles."

The scaling factor determines only the slope of the red line in Figure 3. Its absolute position depends on what your "standard bore" is. Doubling at the 15th would give a slightly steeper line, which I think would match the peaks on the Q lines better.

There's a 2001 paper by Michael Moloney and Daniel Hatten on Q factors in cylindrical pipes, if anyone's interested.

BTW: thanks, Hans, for the juicy thread.
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Re: In Search of the Optimum Bore

Post by hans »

AvienMael wrote:What works for a pipe organ in terms of tube diameter to produce optimal pitch will not necessarily work for a whistle. This raises the issue that unless the head is voiced to precisely match the bore (and everything else), an "optimal bore" is not likely going to perform as intended or expected. I think in whistle making, what has been demonstrated throughout time, is that it is possible to optimize many different bore diameters to a particular key, and the results are dependent upon on one's skill at doing so.
Yes, one can utilise various bores, within a relative small range, to create successful whistles. And head and voicing needs to be adapted to the bore used, and the tube length used. And tuning needs to be adapted likewise. Bore alone is not the answer for a successful whistle. But i am looking specifically at bore, not at voicing or tuning.
AvienMael wrote: I have to wonder also, that the fact that a whistle tube is drilled with tone holes, which in turn are covered or remain uncovered - the fact that the whistle is held (and held differently by different players) - doesn't this also create another variable that the chart does not take into account? Resonance, for example, would certainly be impacted, I think.
I agree that Q values are influenced by other factors. I could imagine that a wooden whistle will have a rougher surface of the bore and thereby more "wall loss" than a very smooth polished bore. So to find the maximum Q for such a bore the bore may need to be a little wider. I do not know how to quantify that. Likewise the influence of tone holes. It really would need some scientific measurements of Q values in actual whistles to find the variations. But how a whistle is hold or blown by different players has no bearing on Q values I think. It has a lot to do how a whistle performs though. If you are a skillful player, you may be able to drive a whistle with relatively poor Q (because it may be too thin, or too wide, or has a too woolly bore surface for instance), assuming that the window and wind way design allows the whistle to be driven successfully. Lack in window or wind way geometry or wind generation (the player) are a different issue.
AvienMael wrote:In scaling the tube width, are you trying to find what is optimal for the bell note - as would be the case for a pipe organ - or optimal width as it would pertain across the octave scale of a particular key? As Daniel points out, there has to be a trade-off in a whistle - as you well know.
I wrote this in my first post, and in my answer to Daniel, that the pipe width calculated from maximum Q for a frequency is not for the bell note, but the fourth or fifth note, so somewhere up the middle of the whistle. This is a necessary compromise.
AvienMael wrote:Tonal differences between tubing of differing diameters obviously exist, but they can also be overcome by changing the voicing of the head. That is, a narrow bore whistle and a wide bore whistle can be made to sound more or less the same simply (okay, well, not so simply, but..) by voicing them to match each other.
I doubt that tonal differences which stem from the width of the pipe can be overcome by voicing. I like to see a narrow and a wide bore whistle which sounds the same due to voicing (unless they just sound sh*te with huge amount of wind noise). The apparent dullness of the tone of a wide bore whistle due to a more prominent fundamental and less audible higher harmonics can not be corrected by voicing I think, nor can be the apparent brightness of a narrow bore whistle due to a higher proportion of harmonics relative to the fundamental.
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